Category: News and Views
All,
I'm making this post to gauge how much support I can round up if I were to start a petition on WhiteHouse.gov to request an audit on large AT firms like FS, HW and the rest of them. We all know Freedom Scientific manufactures their focus displays in China at around $400 per unit. I am considering to start a petition to audit these companies to figure out where all these jacked up prices to keep people who are blind constantly away from the tools we need to be successful, keeping us on the tit of the state agencies. I've been frequently told they can keep prices high because we are a small market and this just doesn't seem to register as at all a reasonable answer, and since it is obvious they have only their bottom line in their interest, not the consumer, as well as the atrocious quality of technical support. I demand to know where the profit goes because it sure as hell doesn't go towards innovation. With the acquisition of Optelec and their gobbling up of Henter Joyce back in the day, it's very clear that they are seeking to be a monopoly and dominate the market to set the price. They remind me of Century Link.
Please comment below if you agree so I can get a reading of how much support we can gather. I fully understand compared to most on this site I have different views politically but I'm not trying to focus on that. We need to band together and find common ground here and get folks who are blind back to work, and make the process of getting back to work more accessible rather than groveling to the state who forces you to agree to their cookie cutter processes like school to keep you out of work and in school so it looks good on paper for these do nothing counselors.
Please understand I'm not looking to pick fights with silver panties or any of the other ones who will give every excuse under the sun why I'm wrong. These are real issues and we need to take these issues on directly. The only way it can be done is if we as a community band together and make our voice loud and clear. It is sad this site doesn't allow for moderation of comments for threads started by the OP so unfortunately it may turn into a flame war and I will do my best to stay out of that. People like that can drain your energy and aren't worth even associating with. You know the type. There is no reasoning with them whatsoever, so let's please steer clear of such flame wars.
Prices are high because they're selling specialty products. When Freedom Scientific starts to come out with toasters and sells them for thousands of dollars I will say that we have a problem.
Again, that is the same reason I've always been told, but I still haven't been told a logical, reason why they have the markup on these products as high as they do, its arbitrary. Why not sell a braille display for 4000, or 5000 or hell 80000. My point is, where is this money going? And why aren't they trying to invest in other areas of technology. They're stagnant. So again, that isn't a good reason. Who cares if it is specialty. I could invent something and call it specialty, does that give me the right to knowingly and willingly screw people over? No, it doesn't. What is the reason for the markup where it is, what does it cover, who does it pay, where does it go. If there is no practical use for this money, then we, as the consumer should know about that. NVDA is just as good or better than JAWS and it's updated far more often. JAWS is a monstrosity. They jack up prices because they know state agencies will shell out the money for it, and they're unwilling to benefit the consumer because of greed, that's why. I'm not saying jaws should be free, $200 should be more than enough money for a full license and the cheaper it is the more licenses they'll sell. How does this not make sense, after all, they're creating a self fulfilling prophecy. You could say any audio editing application is specialty, or that turbo tax is specialty, why don't they charge $800 for each of those. If they did that, people would be super pissed and they would lose money. With assistive tech companies, they know they have a source of money, state agencies that will pay that kind of money, so they have no reason to change.
This is a case of a captive market.
Basically, with the exception of stuff like NVDA of course, FS can charge huge prices for things because they've got us over a barrel. Someone will pay that money, so they get to fatten their wallets.
A few points to bear in mind:
1. By bringing attention to specific users and specific mindsets in post 1, you may have damaged a little of your credibility; the best thing to do, I think, would've been to ignore the elephant in the living room until or unless it stepped on something, metaphorically speaking.
2. Specialty is an inadequate term in this instance, since w'ere also dealing with a much smaller market. Mor people will pay for TurboTax than for Jaws, I would imagine. As such, FS has two things going for it. First, it creates something that no one else (or few others) create. Second, it's creating for a captive market who requires this input.
3. Now, I want you to sit back and ask yourself a question. There are enormous car companies who sell automobiles at many many times above cost. Do you really think it cost anywhere near ten thousand dollars to buy a new car? Yet you will routinely pay twice that, or more, depending on your brand. Same with houses. Does it cost two or three hundred thousand dollars to build a house? Not hardly. I don't have the exact numbers on profit margins, but I suspect if you looked around, you would see that this is a symptom of capitalism at large. Captive markets are everywhere; we, as blind users, just happen to be part of a really blatant one.
Thanks for your input let me address each one by one
1. By bringing attention to specific users and specific mindsets in post 1, you may have damaged a little of your credibility; the best thing to do, I think, would've been to ignore the elephant in the living room until or unless it stepped on something, metaphorically speaking.
* Point well taken though my goal was to stop it before it happened.
2. Specialty is an inadequate term in this instance, since w'ere also dealing with a much smaller market. Mor people will pay for TurboTax than for Jaws, I would imagine. As such, FS has two things going for it. First, it creates something that no one else (or few others) create. Second, it's creating for a captive market who requires this input.
* You used a few key words here. First you mention a captive market. The very essence the blind assistive tech market is labeled as such, I.E. that you'd use that term, to me, inherently carries some very negative connotations with it, and again, why are we a captive market? Again, I submit it is do to greed, and that is not a justifiable reason. NVDA has come a long way, and in realistic terms there don't need to be hundreds of screen readers, so long as there is a very good, viable alternative, that should be enough to drive the market away from them and indeed it is. For example, it is to the point, where on the jaws users list, and I know this from a friend of mine who has been on this list for years, that these people such as the moderators on that list are triggered by the mention of NVDA. And of course, if I'm not mistaken, Eric Damry or however you spell his name is on that list. I can tell you for a fact, my friend has tried contacting FS for help with a very bad issue with jaws, and they refuse to help him. There are all the signs of a secretive, greedy company, in my estimation.
3. Now, I want you to sit back and ask yourself a question. There are enormous car companies who sell automobiles at many many times above cost. Do you really think it cost anywhere near ten thousand dollars to buy a new car? Yet you will routinely pay twice that, or more, depending on your brand. Same with houses. Does it cost two or three hundred thousand dollars to build a house? Not hardly. I don't have the exact numbers on profit margins, but I suspect if you looked around, you would see that this is a symptom of capitalism at large. Captive markets are everywhere; we, as blind users, just happen to be part of a really blatant one.
* Good point to make and here is my response. You go to a dealership and you make them an offer, any good article giving you tips on how to buy a new car will tell you this. Not only this, but each each dealer promotes themselves as the lowest, so there is competition in such a market. Of course it doesn't cost 80 grand for a new Ford or Dodge, however if, in the case of Ferrari, if you want a hand made car not made on an assembly line, then you might wish to support such business practices, whether it costs that or not. It is a competitive market. Assistive tech is becoming more and more competitive with the likes of NVDA and folks developing 3d printed braille displays. The competition is real and if they don't change, the market will force them to do so, or they'll have to jack prices way up to where they make no money and have to go bankrupt. So again, if they're tech support is any indication of their business practices, they really need to be looked into and this is what I'm saying. I could take a dump in a box and say its specialty and sell it for $500, or in the case of this person who runs a kustom kane spelled with a K website, reselling ambutech canes for well over $100, you could argue they're targeting quote captive market. But the more and more people wake up to those kinds of shady business practices, they'll just collapse in on themselves.
Thanks for your responses.
As just an addition I forgot to point #3, in the automobile market and/or the housing market, there are many many variables. for example, what brand of car, what features do you want? In terms of a house, how do you want it built, where do you want it built, what do you want in it, are you going to build it yourself like in the case of the tiny house movement or hire contractors to build you a mansion You could spend $10,000 and do it yourself, or pay $1000000, so there is so much variation. Because the AT industry has only a couple monsters, the variation is limited, but other than that, I still, again, have no answer to why they must charge such arbitrary prices. It isn't like there aren't people that complain every day about JAWS and say, their licensing scheme for example. These are well known issues with jaws and this, quote, captive market, is, truly captive. Is that really the way we should be treated? I don't think so.
We don't need the government's help to weaken Expensivedom Scientific. Donate to NVDA (I try to give $20 or so with each major update) and encourage others to do the same. Tell everyone in every agency you work with about NVDA as a way to save money. If possible, insist that you will only use NVDA and not JAWS.
The points all boil down to the same thing though. Capitalism.
Capitalism wants profit above all else. It doesn't matter if that profit comes at the expense, whether monetary, psychological or emotional, of its targeted demographic.
I used the term "captive markte" for a reason. Since we all have various needs, and we're all going to have to buy stuff at far above cost, it means we're all victims of that captive market.
This is way, way bigger than FS. This is a worldwide thing. FS is not the only culprit, nor the largest. The point I was trying to make here is that while I totally support your stance on this issue, it applies to damn near everything else as well. I am not convinced your petition will do any good. Attacking each company one by one will not slay the many-headed hydra that is rampant capitalism. Haha.
I probably sound like a radical. I don't much care.
Voyager I 100% agree and you bring up a really good point. I work for a school district and I have been pushing them to use NVDA, in fact, I was floored to know they hadn't even heard of it! Their jaws situation is extremely embarrasing. They've got licenses for as far back as version 4.5, and their latest is 14. They spend all this money and don't even keep it up to date. How an elementary school kid has 0 use for jaws and honestly probably wouldn't know the difference if they were sat down at a machine with NVDA and eloquence running on it. It saves the district money, and it keeps students constantly up to date, unlike jaws where they're at the district's or state's mercy to keep them up to date. This is the very problem that needs to be addressed. The Oregon Commission for the Blind is a really horribly run organization and have had nothing but issues with them from day one. Unfortunately, they have you buy the balls since things are so expensive.
Yes, I understand the concept of capitalism. That doesn't mean that monster companies should be able to get away with operating this way without any repercussions. It's partially a capitalism problem, yes, but the bigger issue is the effect it has on a very good and sizable demographic like the blind. and as I also touched on in my last post, another segment of that is state agencies. So the question is, from which angle does this issue need to be taken on from? Do you target the companies for shady business practices? Or, do we target state agencies to reconfigure their mode of operations? Remember, many of these counselors, in the case of OCB, have up to 50 or 60, I've even heard of counselors with up to 100 clients. Now, you cannot sit there and tell me a counselor with a 100 client case load is going to be at all productive and get anything done amongst all the bureaucracy and regulations, since it renders these organizations virtually ineffective and nothing gets done. i speak from experience, but I also speak only from this state, YMMV.
Honestly, if I could get NVDA to act a bit more like Jaws in a couple of important ways, I'd probably switch outright and drop Jaws for good.
I like Jaws's interface with skype, its particular shortcut keys. Those, I suppose, can be tweaked.
I like the way Jaws navigates the internet better, and the way I can use the page-up and page-down keys in Jaws to skip around in the virtual buffer. I started learning on like Jaws 4.something, and was never taught about navigating by headings and all that, so that is not really second nature to me.
But yeah. If I could tweak those things to my satisfaction, then goodbye Jaws, I think.
The power of NVDA, like jaws, is the ability to script, or write extensions which allow you to do things as you mentioned, and there already are tons and tons of add ons.
I want to clear up my initial reasons for doing this petition. It isn't that I want to see FS berried in the dirt. I want them audited and the information released so that we, as a demographic can get a good look at where the money goes, and really see what goes on behind the scenes. So my point behind bringing up the jacked up prices and horrible tech support might perhaps be an indication of all the money they make and where/who it goes to; and as the recipient of this technology on a large part, I feel we need to know really what kind of company FS is. To be fair, I believe a sweeping audit of each of these companies should be audited, not just fs, though fs is a good start.
Other screen readers are fine for at home things, but when you get to a professional level, Freedom Scientific products are simply better suited. That is the market state agencies hope to serve and open jobs for us in.
Apple makes fine products, but these products are at a premium price too. Why, because they are just that, premium products.
Do you wish to audit Apple, because you want to know where the profits are going? Do you feel your new iPhone should cost less, because blind persons could afford them easier?
These and other Apple products to much for the blind community, so why shouldn’t they be more affordable?
We as consumers don’t have to drive Mercedes Benz’s, but most people, if they could, would purchase them, or more premium autos.
Not only does FS do lots of engineering and product development, they make a rounded product line.
That product line needs to be supported too, and all the products sold help in that support.
You are only focused on one or two products that FS offers.
You are also forgetting that customer support is open 5 days per week for several hours per day, and that unit services all of FS products, not just Jaws.
People need to be paid to sit around waiting on customers to call, email, write, and they send techs out in the field from time to time to solve problems.
You’ve stated that one person couldn’t get a company to help with an issue, but you don’t say what that issue was, nor why FS refused to help. It seems odd that a company would refuse to support the products they sell, don’t you think?
It is like stating that you had a Mercedes, but they refused to replace the fuel pump even though it was under warrantee. That would be against a law of fair practices, so your friend could have legal recourse.
So, no, I don’t believe FS or any other company should be audited. If you don’t like the products, and don’t wish to pay the price, that is your choice.
I’m happy to note, that we as blind consumers are getting more of a choice now to what we pay for.
If a company comes along and offers a product line that is equal in quality, and usability, but for a far less price, then we’ll start buying that product lineup and not FS.
The professional comment regarding jaws is flawed. As you know, jaws is has both home and professional versions, the professional version only being professional do to remote assistance tandem and other services that, unless you're a network admin, I don't see anyone using. If jaws is, as you say, more professional, why do so many use it at home? The only use really I have for it at my job is using duxberry translator and even for that, I stick with NVDA and deal with the strange coding interface dbt has simply because jaws has far too many issues and it isn't worth my time, even though I realize there are scripts for jaws to use dbt. Your comparison to Apple just doesn't make any sense, they are not an assistive tech company unto themselves, they are a tech company, period, that's like saying audit Samsung because they're phones are over priced. There's an easy way around that. Buy a broken phone, and fix it, or buy an older version and save money. You don't have that option with fs. One shouldn't have to turn to ebay which is extremely sketchy to begin with to buy a focus display for $200 (which is what they should cost in the first place) just to get access to braille not knowing if the display will be smashed, broken, or disfunctional when they receive it. Trust me, been there, done that. You can cry all day about oh, macbook pros are expensive. Ok, well, for $1200, you must also understand that, by comparison, if you were to buy a quality windows laptop, then jaws, then a braille display, hmm, gee, you'd be spending, what, 5 6 7 grand? Unless you're pushing drugs on a large scale, I'm not sure who has that kind of money. If someone who is blind has that kind of money, they're either living at home and socking away their social security (which is illegal above $2,000) or they got an inheritance or something similar and thus, probably wouldn't bat an eye at this issue. Unfortunately, you've got this 70% number floating around, and there are, admittedly many contributing factors to this number, if it's even real, and this is just one of them.
Okay, I’ll concede, Apple isn’t a technology company for the blind. They do make products that are extremely useful for the blind however. Should they have a special pricing for the blind?
Let’s suppose we audit FS. How do we decide what should be done with the profits, and how much products should cost?
Maybe the engineers that work on the magi fine glasses earn 80 thousand a year.
The others that develop Jaws and do the coding to keep it working current with new software earn 80 thousand a year.
We pay the technical staff 40 and so forth.
Customers decide the products are too costly, so we cut pricing.
This means we now need to cut cost, meaning salaries.
You’re an engineer. Your boss comes to you and explains you’re not going to earn 80 thousand a year anymore because your job has been deemed to be only worth 20 thousand.
Because you work for a company that creates products for the blind, you’ll have to accept this cut, even though it is well below market rates for your job.
Can you now go to your bank that has the loan on your house, car, and such and tell them they’re going to have to cut your payments?
Are you going to call the utilities company and explain, you work for a company that creates products for the blind, so they’re going to need to give you a deep discount on your bill?
How does FS find people willing to work for cut rates because they are doing a good service for the blind?
You understand where I’m going with this.
How do you decide a braille display should only cost $200?
Were's your marketing spreadsheet and facts on this?
First I'm not dictating what a display should cost, number one, number two your analysis is, well, pretty accurate. I submit that should such an audit find price gouging is occurring, these money grubbers will need to have to adjust accordingly. Sorry he can't have that Cadillac or this big house, that's awfully sad, now isn't it. Anyone, provided they are computer savvi and know how to program, can script for jaws at home, in their spare time, but is it worth $80 grand a year? No, that kind of money is reserved for PHD's and folks with specialized technical knowledge. Should a large amount of money be found to be squandered or shoved in the pockets to buy fancy houses, they should have to either immediately lower their prices, refund customers back X% of their purchase cost going back x number of years, or, better yet, provide a large donation of X amount to NVDA. Something along those lines. I stated the $200 number because, as I explained previously, that is what a friend of mine bought his focus for one ebay. And that, is what I was trying to make a point of. However, I added previously as well if you caught it, that folks shouldn't have to resort buying second hand assistive tech on ebay as ebay is first, very sketchy, I know this first hand, and secondly, most of the time people have no clue what their selling, so you could get a great deal, then again, you could get a piece of junk, you just don't know. As for what a display should cost, let me explain that instead of suing people, why not collaborate with other companies to innovate newer technology, hell, Orbit research is doing this, and no doubt Orbit has probably been bullied though you won't hear about it, and that, in fact, is another way for them to innovate, and hence, lower the cost of newer technology. As for jaws, a full license should cost no more than $300, say, and that's pushing it, and an SMA should cost no more than $50 or $65. Rather than bloating jaws with bullshit no one needs, Home edition should be stripped down to the size of NVDA and, as with NVDA, all the extra garbage should be provided, free, like research it and others as a FREE, F R E E, download as they are extra fluff features that people aren't buying, they're buying the core functionality of JAWS which is text to speech. But the key I'm trying to get at here, is actions speak louder than words, and this very conversation, as well as an article I was reading earlier, demonstrates the greed of FS, and I also submit they have not the customer in their best interest, only their bottom line, and that is how a company fails. No other company would be able to get away with it and neither should they. A specialized market or whatever you want to call it sounds good, but a failed business model. Its grasping at straws to justify their greed, and for many it doesn't fly with them. Hell, the refunds FS would give as a result to such an audit actually could go back to the state agencies, and the agencies could divide it up between all of their clients and get them things they need. Now why is this so bad? A good model for pricing anything is, whatever it costs to manufacture, mark it up 100%, so a display costs $400 to manufacture, sell it for $800, not $4000. It is really as simple as that. Oh well, they won't be eating steak and lobster anymore, oh well, they don't serve themselves, they serve us, other wise, why do they even exist?
Take a look at this article: http://www.blind-geek-zone.net/do-you-and-i-count-with-freedom-scientific-still/
I'm going to take some time to address your points. Smile.
Lets have a friendly debate.
I'm sure others will be on before I come back. Last night, I didn't take the time to address properly, but I will.
You raise lots of points, questions, and you have ideas I'd love answers for.
One of them that strikes me is the concwept $80 grand is only reserved for PHD's and such. Fancy houses.
I'll be back. Thanks for the good conversation.
Smile.
Okay, so I'm going to try not to be combattive, but I do have an honest question here.
Right. So we know that FS charges a lot more than cost for its items. We know this is also true for countless other brands even in wider markets.
You want FS audited so you can see exactly how much profit they're making, yet at the same time, you seem utterly convinced that their margin is too large by far. And look, I can sympathize on the second half of that. I feel this way about a lot of companies. They're making an absolute killing.
But exactly what is gained by an audit? If we already know - or think we know - that a company is grossly inflating costs to improve its profits, then what is there to prove? And if we -don't actually know that, why are we stating it like fact?
Because forgive me for saying, but I feel like this is just not the way to go about it. An audit will simply prove what we're like 99.95% sure we already know. An audit by itself won't actually open the company to scrutiny unless what it's doing is illegal, and given that it's been around for decades as an entity with a fairly strict regulatory body to watchdog it, we can be pretty sure it's legal, at the least. All this is going to do is force data onto the table...data we're already quite sure of in the first place. The best question to ask yourself when you go seeking info is, "Okay, if I get it, what am I going to do with it?". If you're just puttering around on the internet and fall down the Wikipedia rabbit-hole and learn facts you will probably never use again, that's okay. If you are consciously seeking support for the auditing of a company, you've got to have a plan to be able to do something with the knowledge you seek to gain.
I feel like the emphasis is being fixed upon an already agreed-upon point (that capitalism is ugly), and not on the solution of that point. Were I you, I would spend more time supporting the alternative (in this case, stuff like NVDA as a screenreader). This will negatively stigmatize FS by exclusion, if nothing else, and they will be forced either to change their business practices or be driven out of business. I think it behooves those of us in positions to do this to push NVDA over Jaws if it will do the job in question, because a situation where everybody spends less money for virtually the same usability is win-win for everyone except those being left in the cold.
I'll put this in to a couple post so it isn't so long.
Okay. Let’s address your points.
I’ll stick to only companies that create, or sell things specifically for the blind and visually impaired.
You say anyone, provided they are computer savvy can script for Jaws at home. How do you think this capability became possible? Some engineer, or a team had to create these tools. That required some specialized knowledge, and time.
Even though these tools are available, they are not able to script anything at all, or for any job application at all.
If this were so, we, the blind could work at just any job we decided we could do that utilized a computer.
Next, you say I must be savvy. How am I going to get savvy?
I need to support my family, so I must work 8 hours per day, then come home and script my screen reader because my company has made some changes. When do I have time to enjoy the fruits of my labor?
So, I purchase a screen reader. It has people who have specialized training and who get paid enough to want to even work for the company that creates the screen reader. It makes it possible for me to keep my job even after company upgrades and changes, and I don’t have to go home and work a second job to support the first, plus learn to use the tools to support the second job that supports the first.
Is that product not worth the price I’ve paid?
Sure, the products are marked up, but that is for a reason. Companies have bad spells. They don’t have buyers or enough. They can’t get permission/patents and such things to put the innovation in to a product an engineer has created.
Not only am I creating screen readers, I have other products too and some of them aren’t selling, or I’m not able to add features.
Now, how about this collaboration thing? I’ve invested tons of money in to a product line and had success in creating something that not only works, but works well. Why should I just give all my investment to a competitor, or even donate money to them?
They didn’t make the investment, nor take the chance of losing, but soon as I have the ideas, information, I should be nice and just share it with anyone that ask me.
My company, namely, FS must make deals and get support for other company’s too.
Microsoft is one that helps FS help us. Some security must be in place so that FS just doesn’t go sharing Microsoft’s trade secrets.
Now, I’ve invested this time, money, and taken a chance, but I must live in a basic home, walk to work, and eat lunch out of a paper bag to keep my products low cost only because these products are for the blind, right?
I don’t deserve a fancy home, nor can I eat well even though I’ve gone to school for years to learn my specialized abilities, and paid money to do it. If I took out loans to learn my trade, who’s going to pay them back?
If I’m going to work in an industry that creates products for the blind, I can’t expect to live nicely, because of this, right?
You talk about NVDA. How do you think it is possible for NVDA to exist? Do you see it as a bunch of people with specialized skills sitting around giving away their time and skills for free? Do you believe that is how it works?
All the people that work on NVDA live in small homes, and eat basic food, and only scrape buy, right?
If cheaper products could do all that Jaws does, and I’m talking in the professional job market, not the professional version of Jaws, don’t you think people, even agencies would stop buying Jaws?
It must be worth the price. It is for me.
On top of that, about 95% of blind persons can get started with the program free. All they need do is keep up on SMA’s. It is not FS fault when you decide you don’t wish to pay about $8 per month to keep something that does so much for you and your livelihood current, is it? $8 isn’t even the price of a good pack of beer, but we’ll make sure we have several packs of beer.
Why? Because it does something for us we’re willing to pay for.
Me, I'll skip a pack of beer, and pay the $8 so I can use current programs and keep my job, so I can at least turn the heat on when it is cold outside.
When I work, I feel I deserve to enjoy the fruits of that labor, and if the market can pay my price, and my product is doing a ton for that market, I'll not feel badly for living well.
Wayne, I see two problems with your line of thinking.
1. The divide between Jaws and NVDA is a whole lot smaller than it was five years ago
I actually know of some NVDA users who say that NVDA is better than Jaws, can do more things, is more flexible. I am dubious, but I confess that the more times I hear it, the more I must believe it is coming from somewhere. Never mind, too, that NVDA is completely open source, and that people can and do make add-ons for it which can vastly improve its capabilities. Also never mind the fact that NVDA is less than one-tenth the monster and data-hog that Jaws is. It's not a clear-cut case as to what's the better screenreader anymore, so the particularly striking question here is "why should I pay this many hundreds of dollars for a screenreader when there's a virtually free one that does almost the same thing?". And this says nothing at all of the markup on other products. The screenreader has been focused on here, but it's not the only avenue of contention.
As such, to say that you get what you pay for, which seems to be essentially what you're saying, is stretchy at best. NVDA keeps getting better and narrowing the gap, if the gap even still exists, and while I'm still a Jaws user, I'm going to be investigating NVDA quite a bit shortly, and I might well switch and never look back. Others already have.
2. Capitalism is here, we've got to deal with it, and as such, no one's arguing that people have to make a buck
I think the main question here is not to ask whether or not people at FS deserve to be paid well for what they do. They do deserve at least some money for the work they have done, and continue to do, as a company for those who wish to avail themselves of FS's services. This goes for all other companies; if you want something, you pay for it. So that's not the question, and thus all your rhetoric about making money and working and all that jazz...sorta falls flat. What people object to is the enormous markup present here and in a lot of other places. There is a mentality rooted into capitalism that you should make as much money as you can readily get away with. Sure, you can live on fifty grand a year if you sell units at a hundred bucks a pop. But if you can sell at four hundred bucks a pop and quadruple that fifty grand to two hundred thousand a year, then what's to stop you, capitalistically speaking, from doing it? And that's where most of the corporations of the world are; they maximize their profit by finding the fine line between "too much" and "as much as the customer will pay"...or they try to.
And this circles very neatly back to my own argument. The aim here is not to expose how slimy or grabby a company is. The goal is to make it so that that practice is no longer economically logical. And one of the ways to do that is to support more ethical competitors wherever possible.
You aren't going to kill capitalism with a well-timed poke at its underbelly. You're going to kill it by starving it. In the case of FS, it's as simple as no longer endorsing their products and forcing them to reimagine their business model if they want to remain viable. When it comes to the world at large...same thing, really, but it's a much, much bigger beast that needs to die.
And be replaced with what?
Yes, but Shep, most of NVDA, even though open source is developed, and worked on by professionals.
They have to make sure they don't cross on other folks devolopments.
People get paid, and NVDA is heavily subsidized.
If it is such a good program, and I agree it can work, you and anyone else that doesn't want to pay the price for Jaws can simply not pay.
What you can't decide is that the people that create it are charging to much for it.
You can't decide they're charging to much, because you want to pay less for it to buy.
Remember, you said NVDA was hot, so why do you care about what FS charges?
You are not paying the price.
Even if you can prove it is over priced, it isn't illegal to get people to pay for your products at your price.
I could understand if they had a monopoly on this and no one else could compete, but they don't.
Some folks pay $15 to have their hair cut. Some pay $150. They pay that price because they believe the person cutting their hair does a better job, and they enjoy the services they receive. Would it be correct to make the person that can get $150 for the haircut take $15?
If you take that angle, Wayne, then it becomes a matter of morality.
No, it's not actually illegal to charge outrageous prices. But it's arguably immoral, especially when the larger/more established company is the one charging high prices, and is also the one most people are aware of. People are mistaken in thinking that that high price is something they have to pay. And this is why I point out that if you have a problem with this, the best thing to do is not to tear open that company's financial records with an audit, but instead to make the other lower-cost alternatives as publicly loud as you can. Make sure people know that they've got a choice that may do everything they need.
Voyager, we live in a world where 1% of the population controls roughly 99% of the wealth. It's kind of disgusting. Some sort of socialist progress might be the only way to recover from what we're doing, because the speed at which the planet and its occupants consume its resources is outstripping our ability to replenish those resources. And the hell of it is that it's not as if there isn't enough to go around. We have more than enough food worldwide to feed everyone, but in a lot of cases the food is wasted or is not distributed to those who need it, largely because they can't pay for it in a meaningful fashion. So the ideal, to me at least, would be a system where money is, if not totally irrelevant, then far, far less meaningful. I won't get into the ethics of it, because that's an entirely different post, but simply put, capitalism does not work. Not long-term, not on a global scale. It self-destructs.
I see your point, but you've got to first prove that the price FS is asking is outrageous.
If they are paying good salaries, and doing lots of research should they stop?
I gave an example of a salary at 80 grand, why would that be unreasonable if the talent is getting good engineering out?
FS creates more then just screen reader.
Thank you, shepherdwolf, you made my point exactly. If one is savvi enough to sit down and learn Python, for example, in that instance, what makes jaws proprietary scripting language which looks strangely a lot like custom c++ functions already done for you that you just call to any different from writing addons.
Performing an audit, yes, may show what we already can extrapolate from FS's actions as a company, what that does is put meat to the entire argument. And SW is correct, it comes down, then, to a moral issue. What it also does is allow us to have this conversation and stick actual numbers to them. I never suggested anyone shouldn't be wealthy, but doing it out of greed is not the best use of capitalism. Capitalism was never meant to be used for the detriment of others but it so frequently is. It is a moral/ethical problem, not a capitalist problem. As an unscrupulously stagnating company, it is very clear then to see we are not in their best interest and yes, the only way to stop such practices is to starve the beast and let it die. The problem is, all long time jaws users have become complacent. Ok, well, its all you know, which is fine, but the shift needs to happen one way or another. What SW has said is about what I'd say as well, just a lot more thought out. With the gap closing in between NVDA and JAWS in this context, what justification can you give to justify paying for something that (insert all reasons here why jaws is not worth $1000 or more) is any better than what NVDA offers. Folks wouldn't be switching to NVDA if it truly wasn't worth their time or if it didn't actually do what all these people are saying it does for me, myself included.
An audit will gives that platform to continue having this conversation in a slightly more informed and serious manner, but until it is done, many of the blind population will fall pray to not just FS, but VR agencies. I just had a conversation with a mobility instructor today who used to work for the commission and the boildown of it all was simply that, if the counselor can make it look as good as possible on paper, and spend the least amount of money as possible, they get good ratings from the higher ups. Someone like me has such a hard time because I am an open thinker, I am hard working, and I do know what I'm talking about. This is apparent to them and the crew I work with. What happens on the VR end is that I look so good on paper that he cannot justify doing anything for me since as far as the higher ups are concerned, nothing needs to be done if I'm so well versed, etc.
Companies, especially assistive tech ones, do, and must, collaborate. It will exponentially increase development, innovation and all of a sudden, you'll see so many blind people employeed and successful it will be so much easier. Instead, you see these small time side jobs that try and make something but require so much money to develop. And as you might imagine, the folks who have these great ideas are blind, live on government benefits, and can't afford to take out a loan. If companies like FS operated ethically, they'd have internships or at least a meeting with them phone or otherwise to gather ideas and potentially open themselves to a possible job. But so many road blocks exist; patents, loans, money, and a cult of hidden profits we can't talk about, because, as I said before, it's about their bottom line. They should operate for us, not themselves. When you've got people saying that half of these bugs for jaws that are reported never get addressed or they are told to look over them, what does that tell you. It isn't what you see that counts, its what you get that counts. With FS, we get a handful of shit.
I'll sign a petition. I get a new updated version from FS, with no, and I mean No, 1on1 training. Someone who has their own accessible business, said I habve to pay another $800 just to get technicians to help with the training download, which I think by itself with no tech support, is $600. I don't know for certain on that price. However, that means that only $200 goes for tech-support.
Some of you say that JFW, can be swopped for NVDA? Well, with a learning disability, it's not as easy. NVDA used to have me in a panic. I'm not saying they shouldn't make some profit, but the gouging of folks like me, is ridiculous!
Because Rehab won't help me, I had to get a prescription for an appropriate and successful screne reader. Either they get an audit, or start helping some of us, that the state service tells they refuse to help. I mean, it's not my fault I have a genetic problem that causes severe medical issues.
And, how in bluest blazes, can APH sell a display for $500, while the Focus14 is over a grand?!
Something's wrong, kids. If we don't speak up, we are just as much part of the problem.
I've been reading some old Westerns, and even they say that if the good law-abiding citizens let the lawless reign, then it's the guilty getting away with the crimes. Maybe that's harsh, but what about the kid that's overwhelmed because, he/she can't figure out NVDA, and has to have JAWS, or Window-Eyes? FS owns that program, too.
Just Chillin', I didn't even look to see I spelled your name right. Sorry. But, your points are pretty valid, to someone with a learning disability, who just forked over $750, from a medical account, so they could have JAWS without the restarting the computer all the time. Especially, since my rent is high, and I need all I can get my hands on, when a low-income apartment comes available. And, I want to work. But that's not possible, under "Normal circumstances." If I have to get help with the power bills, why can't I get some help from folks like FS, who are way overproffiting?
I am not against a profit, but some folks try for more and more. And they do it at the expense of the poor. Most of us in the states, can't get a job for anything! You folks with jobs, you're blessed. And I envy you.
Blessings,
Sarah
Hotwheels exactly right. To be clear, I am perfectly fine with a company making a profit on a premium product such as JAWS, but lets be reasonable and as such, customer friendly. If you are a business owner, hell, maybe you should get an even bigger discount as an incentive to keep up to date so your access to business related applications or whatever can be taken out of the equation of any and all stress you might also encounter while operating that business. That's all I'm saying. VR agencies bog us down enough with bureaucracy and we'll buy this, but not that, and the plan says this, not that, can't justify that, so you basically end up buying your own home gear like talking tape measures or click rulers or cooking gear etc yourself, if, for example their vendor list doesn't include the company you want, then you'll need to wait 90 days for them to put the company on that vendor list if they'll even do it at all. Make jaws $200 and put it on the shelf at Walmart or any other department store/office supply store and you won't believe how many copies it would sell, they'll have no reason to raise the price. People will be buying it that never even knew there was such a thing. Same goes for embossers, or Braille displays, the list goes on and on. Even if they only carried one brand of embosser, at least it would be a start.
Let me shake your hand! Finally! Someone who agrees with me... on some things!!! So, when you writing that petition? (Grinning)!!
Blessings,
Sarah
I am still giving it consideration, but the problem is, I am just not entirely sure how the word can get spread around....we really need to band together as a community and there seems to be lots of division here.....perhaps you can spread the word for me and perhaps I can get help writing a draft of the petition because I'm not entirely sure it can be edited once it goes live on the white house website.....I'll probably start a facebook page or something......I can add you if you like on there and we'll need to spread the word organically
Okay, so we feel it is morally wrong for a company that creates products for the blind to earn to much profit.
What is the profit margin that would be acceptable?
If America, and other countries who don’t subsidize Jaws for Windows now, create a budget so that all blind citizens have full access to the program and subsequent updates free, or at a very low cost, would this make FS moral?
Spain, is the current country that has done this, but others have made Jaws for Windows and other programs FS creates for the visually impaired free to their citizens for a while now.
Shep, Canada is one of these, so this is probably why you’ve not worried over much about switching to NVDA. Citizens there receive updates when they are required, such as, when Zoom text needs to be updated, or Jaws, due to Microsoft releasing Windows 10.
America, and the UK do this to a point, but not totally, because you must be registered with a rehabilitation, or school program to receive the programs. Once you are off, you are on your own as to keeping your software current.
Other countries do updates on a cycle. The cycle might be every 2 or 4 years depending on if the current software continues to be compatible.
In these countries, is FS morally correct?
Other countries don’t support their citizens at all, so they must find means to get the software, and programs. Sometimes, there are licenses issues, and import problems, so the citizens don’t have access to licensed copies, so must rely on unlicensed products.
Is FS morally wrong in these countries?
just-chillin, you are an FS employee. You’ve got your tent, beans and rice, and a little meat on Sundays, and you can have a beer at the bar now and then, and a few extras. You’re getting by.
If another company comes to you and says, we notice you’re a talented programmer and engineer, we’ll pay you twice what FS pays for that talent, are you going to turn the job offer down based on the fact FS is a morally correct company, and is doing all they can to make sure all visually impaired citizens have access to their products?
What, as you say, is, or, should be the bottom line?
Do we honestly believe NVDA is totally free, and no one makes any profit, or has any unmoral gains from this program, because it is free to anyone that wishes to use it?
It is open source, so this makes it completely correct, and all the free talent that gets allowed in, is okay, and the engineers that do the checking and testing are kind folks and do this out of the bottoms of their hearts?
I see you believe if we put products such as Jaws at Walmart, pricing would come down, because people would buy them that don’t know about them?
You need to rethink that. Do you know how many mainstream products simply never sale?
Walmart, or anyother business isn’t going to keep products on the shelves that collect dust.
I can't say much more than others have said here. I don't like FS any more than anyone else, but I would not sign such a petition, and personally think, to the original poster, that you're wasting your time. Even if you got what you wanted, what good is an audit going to do? As so many others have pointed out, FS is not the only company that engages in charging more than their product is worth. It's not illegal, so an audit would do nothing to change the thing you've got a problem with.
If you do decide to go ahead and write this thing, social media such as Facebook and Twitter would be your best way to spread the word about it. But if you think the backlash against your idea on here has been intense, you'd better prepare yourself for what you'll get when you spread this to a wider audience.
My responses aren't backlash. I just believe people need to think about an issue completely, not only from personal experience.
If I felt strongly, I believe putting this on social media would be exactly what I'd do.
So, Shadow, that is a good suggestion.
Maybe some facts will come to light he doesn't have.
If Jaws was difficult to obtain, I might see this differently, but as a young blind person, you are basically given it. If you are newly blind, we in America have programs that will provide it for you.
I noticed on another board, this poster feels braille is also to expensive. I use braille daily, and I don't require more than about an investment of $10 worth of devices to use it affectively. I made that investment years ago and haven’t had to reinvest. Paper, a slate. I can also borrow braille books from my library, so I don't even buy these for my reading pleasure. As a young blind person, I was given a braille writer, and these things can and do last a lifetime if you take care of them. They also can be re given to a blind person that requires a new one, if that device is something you must have to maintain your life. The braille displays too. So, I guess this is all in a person’s perspective.
If FS has a goal of reaching everyone, they haven't nearly achieved it. Rehabs are cracking down. The kids get all the help. Folks that fall through the cracks, get no help, or just one version, and then told find your own money, or some such thing.
If they were that concerned, how come those that are low-income have to ask for money for birthdays and things, just to upgrade their screen reader?
I have no clue what the answer is, but if we don't advocate change, we are only hurting ourselves and others who need the screen readers.
I wish Microsoft would get audited, too.
Blessings,
Sarah
I think for real and others are missing the point.
What would be a, as you say, acceptable bottom line? Well I've already answered this question, mark a product up 100% and sell it.
Next you're jumping right to the conclusion that jaws wouldn't sell at Walmart, hence your statement that they don't keep products collecting dust they can't get rid of. And you know walmart and others have sold jaws how? It is intentional artificial scarcity so they can create an environment where their points are valid. I am not against free markets, capitalism or assistive tech companies making money, but for the love of god, don't be friggin greedy because you have made this quote, specialized market, precisely what it is so your arguments, as one of those companies like fs, are validated by the very system you've created for yourself.
You gotta ask yourself, why has NVDA become so popular? Why does it rival jaws in more than one way? Why is it exploding with better features, faster, and dare I say, jaws is ripping pages out of NVDA's book just to keep people coming back, like moving the mouse around and hearing what's under it.
Why is it, folks, that we're even having this conversation in the first place. That alone should tell you there's greed in the market.
I don't know about you, but I like to help people. You may not know that by my posts, but again look what I gotta deal with on here in large part. But the reality is, if I was approached by someone who wanted my talent, I'd want to know there mission statement, I'd want to know their goals, and so forth. As a moral and honest company with integrity with the customer in mind that you supposedly serve, you would be reinvesting the money you made, right back into your operation.
Someone brought up Microsoft. Ok now Windows is pirated again and again, but what if jaws was priced just like Windows, still too pricy I'd submit but let's say $150 per full license. That is certainly within reach of a grandma who has gone blind to diabetes or a vet coming back with his eyes blown out or something. Many of these guys and folks are using macs and rightfully so.
Not questioning at all what Freedom scientific does and how they function says a great deal about how you'd run a business and frankly that is scary, to think you could make a product you know a great deal of people could use, then jack the price way up because for some reason you're god and you think you're product is so much better because you've got this allusive team of programmers lurking in the shadows in St. Peters Burg sipping coffee all day or making adding the next feature into an already congested piece of software so then you've got this allusive reason to charge such a high price because, well, they must be hard at work, right? Microsoft is 10x bigger than FS ever will be. They aren't leaders in anything and they should work for us, not their bank accounts. If their bank accounts are their highest priority, work on wallstreet or be a politician, join the clinton foundation or something screwing people over on a mass scale don't be a sneak about it.
We are having this conversation, because you’ve opened it to have.
You’ve not proved your point however.
You’ve only stated your opinion, but you’ve ignored the fact that.
NVDA is not free; only to the users.
Jaws can be had free to the user just like NVDA provided you are willing to get yourself in to a program to learn, or other.
If you are a college student, in America, or a student that requires the license, it is paid for. To keep it, you must renew your updates.
In many other countries, that isn’t even a requirement that you keep it updated. They do it for you.
If Jaws would sell at Walmart, why not canes, braille displays, braille paper, and any other equipment, or even household products that aid the blind specifically? Why aren’t all these things on the shelves?
Because Jaws is not, that makes FS wrong?
Based on what fact makes Jaws mark up 100%?
FS isn’t in the place to be ripping pages out of NVDA’s book. This is illegal, and they’d be in court about it. They must develop their own system.
What things do you think are in Jaws that aren’t needed?
Answer half my questions, I’ve posed to you over several posts, and we’ve got a conversation. Otherwise, we’ve only got a rant from your side with no supporting facts.
You've stated the moral issue.
I do say you are not like most people. You claim you are willing to take low pay for hard work because you're helping people, even to the point you don't have your basic needs met, because, well, you're kind hearted?
You fundamentally misunderstand what I'm saying. Why do you have to be subject to the state to have what equates to basic access to information. Because the state pays for it doesn't mean its free, its certainly not, and what you get to make your life fundamentally better shouldn't be up to the state.
NVDA solves this problem. NVDA isn't free, only to the users? Isn't that the entire point by contrast? It is donor supported.
You say: If Jaws would sell at Walmart, why not canes, braille displays, braille paper, and any other equipment, or even household products that aid the blind specifically? Why aren’t all these things on the shelves?
Because Jaws is not, that makes FS wrong?
Because like I said again, its artificial scarcity to keep prices high. You're right, why don't you see things like that? I don't see any good reasons. So basically what you're saying is, let the state pay for everything and have low standards rather than promote newer ideas and be innovative and not screw people over. Please refute my proposal that a 100% markup on really anything is a flawed business idea. Also FS is simply a focal point of this entire conversation because they're so obviously bad, people have said it for years, both customers and folks that have worked with them. The health supplement industry understands exactly what you say and that's a well known industry, mostly unregulated that screws people over big time. A dollar or 2 of product goes into a capsule and then it's marked up 5 6 7 times, and most of what is in the capsules are binders and fillers. Just google any major brand of vitamin or supplement scams and you'll be reading for days. Very few companies have reasonable ethical stands and being complacent being screwed over makes no logical sense. An audit on FS will bring to light my points exactly and will enable us to take the next step, boycotting them, boycotting VR agencies who support them, and it will push people to give even more serious consideration to other products, such as NVDA.
Sarah, I do not mean to be confrontational, but I want to address something.
Why is it that you could/can learn and use Jaws, but are anxious about using NVDA? Can you explain to me why exactly your learning or anxiety difficulties are so specific?
This is an honest question. I truly don't understand. I'm not trying to put you on the hot seat, and I'm not going to attack you if I still don't understand, though I may argue/try for more clarification. Fair warning on that front.
The reason I am asking this is twofold though, because in a position like yours, it really would behoove you to learn NVDA because it's free and very lightweight as a screenreader goes.
Allt hat being said, you're quite obviously under no obligation to answer. I just want to see if I can help, because I think it might be in your best interest.
I had that question too, but it wasn't part of the discussion.
If you can learn Jaws, you can learn NVDA or any other screen reader.
Okay, taking points one by one.
First, I’m not sure what you mean by Why do you have to be subject to the state to have what equates to basic access to information.
You don’t if you mean what equipment is good and can work for you. The problem with that, is most people don’t do research, or don’t have the ability to understand what they need, so rely on professionals.
Once you are able, you can advocate for the things you need. The state is your employee so to speak, and without you, they have no job.
If you can prove A device works best for your needs, you’ll receive that device.
No, it isn’t free because the state pays, nor is NVDA free because you receive it at no cost, so what’s the difference?
The state doesn’t decide as I’ve said, only if you can’t, or need professional advice.
I don’t know about you, but when I was requiring things to aid me as a blind person, I had no idea what could work best for my job-related needs. I didn’t have access to the company’s software to study, nor did I can even understand what would work best.
The professionals decided, and the screen reader and programming worked.
Even now as savvy as I believe myself to be, I can’t get access to say Century Links software so I can figure out if Jaws, or NVDA could be scripted. They won’t allow it.
If I know what works, as I’ve said, I can get what I want.
NVDA is free to the user, so is Jaws, just not upgrades unless you are still in college, or require it to continue your job. NVDA is not completely donor supported, it is heavily subsidized. Not by the US, but still supported the same.
So is Jaws by many countries. Why they choose it over NVDA, you’d need to ask them.
Jaws is not, and has not been the only screen reader available for many years. We’ve had choices. FS could keep the price of Jaws as they wished, but at no time were we the blind forced to buy it because it was the only game in town.
Back when they started, they were the only game in town, but that quickly changed after others saw they had a market.
So, no, they don’t have a set up market, they just decided what they wanted for the product, and buyers agreed to pay it for varying reasons.
I don’t see Jaws as a substandard program, and feel they do a fine job keeping current and making the programs and such I require work, and work well.
I’d not say they’ve been perfect, but for my money, good.
If you feel strongly Jaws is not a good product, and FS is screwing you over, use NVDA and stop paying your money, or even the states money to FS. FS isn’t twisting your arm and making you buy their product.
Would it not be more worth your time to start a drive, or something advocating NVDA and proving that it is superior?
You’ll need to put your money were your mouth is, like FS has done for years, and send out reps and such to companies, and state agencies, and country advisors to campaign for NVDA or any other products.
This will cost you out of pocket of course, so you’ll need to find funding to do this work.
Now, that just might be a reason FS is charging a specific price, but let’s not think about that.
It is simply to high priced, right?
But the very philosophies which drive both FS as well as NV access are quite different. This is more ore less my point I'm trying to make. It is the very fundamental principals both are based on which sets them both apart. I don't use jaws, and haven't for close to 10 years. I do, however, see when friends of mine have issues with jaws such as the one I posted about today, and I keep convincing them to switch more and more, some of them are making the effort and some are not and that is their choice.
To your point about advocating for NVDA. I have taken and passed the NVDA certification test. Now, either the test was super basic which is certainly seemed like it was, or I'm leagues passed most people in terms of technology and I'm not so egotistical to claim the latter, however true it may or may not be.
To your point about taking the matters into my hands and having the money to go out and do my own thing. My question to you is, why do I, or one person have to do everything, why can't the entire community band together as a whole and realize there is a fundamental problem here, because understand the more people that concentrate together and speak up, the more of a likelihood it will attract more attention and that is my main goal I'm getting at by wanting an audit. And who knows, what if nefarious activity was found being spent on luxury cars and houses and the like. Then what would you say, in that instance, would you be ok with that, or would you be happy with living a less than lavish lifestyle to support someone else's which you have no part of and for what you receive in return being inadequate by comparison to something free.
In terms of NVDA, yes, I realize there are other moneys coming in to maintain the site, setup the certification system and other associated benefits the community receives, but it isn't done out of greed, as far as I am aware; and since jaws was the first on the scene, perhaps the stigma of such a, quote, premium product, still sticks with people. It may not be the only option folks have, no, but it sure takes the lead over the others, I can't tell you anyone that I know who actively uses, say, window eyes. Although by purchasing a copy of office if I remember correctly you do receive a license for Window Eyes.
Shift to another good example of technology away from jaws, let's talk about Braille. Why is it Orbit can develop a 20 cell display for around $500 yet FS has 0 desire to produce something similar? Think of the entire assistive tech market as a whole. Personally, I can't stand having being involved with the state. You don't just ask for something and you get it, it doesn't work like that, at least not here. You sign a very specific plan, typically one that is geared to education or employment related and if it doesn't fit precisely with what the plan says, no luck, Charley.
Tell me, what is FS’s and NV access philosophies? I’m honestly not aware they have one.
If I learned they were making lots of profits and spending that profit on nice homes and cars, I couldn’t exactly say it wasn’t fair.
My reasons for this, is, they’ve got happy customers who are happy to pay the price set. I could only complain if they were the only company available with a screen reader, and were using that leverage to keep the price high.
This isn’t the case.
Next, I couldn’t be sure the things they have were related to the profits they were earning from Jaws alone.
A good example of this, is I know a lady who is a super market checkout person. She’s the lady you give your money too, and smiles and tells you to have a nice day after she’s sacked your stuff.
If you follow her home, you’d see she lives in a million-dollar home, and has several nice cars.
Could we assume she was earning too much money, and probably stealing money from the till?
Should we audit her and see how she’s able to live in such a fashion, even though all she does is check groceries, as far as we can see?
So, no, I’d not begrudge them a good life.
You say Jaws has minor problems, but all software will from time to time. They do have customer service available for several hours per day to support you however.
No, all problems and issues won’t be solved, but that is the nature of software. NVDA has problems too, and many times a feature they release doesn’t work well, such as the feature that is supposed to make Microsoft’s Edge 100% accessible.
I personally don’t have a gripe with that, because I understand it is a work in progress, however, it could be used as a point to say NVDA doesn’t live up to promises made.
I could say, they aren’t doing such a good job.
My suggestion that you put your money were your mouth is, is based on your complaints. Just as you say you shouldn’t have to do this alone, you can’t expect the blind community to agree with you, and jump on your wagon. Much of that community is happy with the products.
No company, including FS makes products based on customer wants. They must decide if a product has a market, and how well that product will sale.
If they have a 14, a 32 a 40 and 80 cell display, and these are selling slowly, they won’t be jumping to build a 20-cell device. Investment must be made to create and build it even if they’ve already got technology on the shelves.
It must be viable.
I understand what you’d like to happen, but you’ll have to understand, we the blind community are a market. There is money to be made in creating and selling us products. If a product can and does the job, we’re going to buy that product.
You’ll also notice, some products just don’t make the grade, and we as a community stop buying them. It is a natural progression.
So, you and I, just have a different prospective on this. I do hope you’ll think about some of the things that have been posted here, not only by myself, but others, and try to see the complete picture, not just your idea of what that picture might be.
Peace.
We all have a choice. Don't want to support FS? Don't support them.
After reading much of this thread here are a few things I'll point out that is at least worth considering.
I actually worked at fs a number of years ago for 5 or so years.
1. Tech support love it or hate it, it's staffed from 8:30 to 7:00 PM 5 days a week with a dozen or so folks. Customers call in daily on a range of products, which can take from 5 or 10 minutes to fix, or hours. Many of these folks haven't purchased an update, or new product in years, so in actuality they are still supporting versions of the software from even a decade or so back. Consider these calls cost every time one is received. There were customers I helped and worked with some times 5 to 10 times monthly. Many times the problem wasn't FS related even when the customers insisted it was. Now, I say all that to say consider just the cost of support and what it cost per customer verses what many customers have actually purchased. SO again whether you love or hate support it's there and an extremely costly piece of the pie. While I believe the prices of hardware can come down, I cringe when I hear folks say software is so expensive ETC, without considering the back end of what goes on. There is a support staff, a test team, a development team, a customer service team, a shipping team. ETC ETC ETC. As for NVDA verse Jaws in a professional setting, as a trainer who is willing to use anything to keep a customer employed, I'll tell you right now so many times NVDA has let me down and not even come close to meet the need of the end user. Or, the end user has used Jaws for so long, they have no interest in trying another product.
Lastly, consider Microsoft Office. They have come out with 4 versions of the software in the past 8 years, I purchase Office pro usually at a cost of $400 or so, adding up to 1600 bucks, so purchasing Jaws and Sma's during that same time period would cost in the neighborhood of $2100 doesn't seem like that much of a mark up when you think of it in those terms.
Just some food for thought.
@post 43:
You targeted freedom Scientific for not making a cheaper braille display like Orbit Research did. However, you need to consider again that Freedom Scientific is hardly the only company producing braille displays out there. In fact, the smart beatle, which is produced by Hims is probably a far more popular display than the Focus line, and sells for round abouts the same amount. No braille display I'm aware of, from any company in fact sells for under a thousand dollars as of the writing of this post. So, I echo the comments of other posters who have said if you want to audit one company for their supposed overcharging for their products, target all of the companies.
I am one of those people who does keep his JAWS license up-to-date. I tend to update it whenever the SMA is about to run out, so I don't pay too horribly much for the upgrades. Just the usual $120 every two years or so. I don't have a problem with it, to be honest. As one of the most recent posters said there are a lot of behind the scenes things going on which probably require that money.
I'm not begrudging the things that NVAccess is doing, or putting down people who use NVDA. Heck, there are times when I use it too. It's a great screen reader for people who want something light-weight and simple. You have to do a bit more configuring to it than might be normal by installing the add-ons that you want, but it works quite well.
And there are those of us who jaws kept working for quite a few years because it could be scripted and able to be used on a big network, for me a hospital network. I was a medical typist.
To post 43 have you actually looked at the Orbit display? While it looks good for home use I would never use it at work. Because all the pins refresh at once when text changes there's more lag then normal. More importantly the thing sounds like a machine gun. While that's fine for home use it's not acceptable in an office setting when you are using the display in a meeting. It will be a great device for a lot of situations and will hopefully help provide low cost braille in education. There will still be a place for more expensive braille displays for use at work in a corporate setting though.
As I said, FS is only a focal point of such an audiot number one.
Number 2, while much can be improved with newer Braille displays, again, why can't companies like FS or HW and so on partner up with Orbit or any other third party to advance lower cost solutions.
If it is so cheap to keep jaws up to date every 2 years $120, what is with the claim of many calls being in regard to older software doesn't that spell it all out for you there? Or the $260 price tag I looked at for one license transfer I was considering. If you don't shell out the initial $1000, then you don't get that kind of a deal, again going back my argument regarding the state agencies.
Third. Ok there is tech support, I know one of them, Hal Night, he used to work with a friend of mine in radio for a number of years back in the 70's. Whenever I used to call before I knew Hal they were rude and so on. But that doesn't really justify the cost of JAWS itself. If office pro sells for $400, what factor is there to price jaws at nearly double that? I still do not have an answer. An anual financial report from the company, simply do to the fact that these things are so over priced would at least provide those of us who refuse to support such practices with easier feelings instead of being so secret and the whole special market excuse. After all, we are who they serve. Isn't it strange they charge $1000 for a program most people don't have by and large?
Like I have said repeatedly now, the answer is not in an audit. The answer is in pushing other solutions which force other businesses to react.
When a sighted person wants a car, they don't have to buy a Mercedes. Nothing stops them going to an auction and getting something cheap and reliable. Mercedes isn't going to be audited just because its prices are high. Some people don't care. Some people prefer the Mercedes brand.
In this case, FS is basically a Mercedes.
If you don't like it, go get a different car. If enough people stop buying the Mercedes, they'll have to change their business model. If people continue to give them money for a product they want, that's their business, not anyone else's.
It doesn't matter if the folks down at Mercedes make money hand over fist. That's not a good reason for an audit.
Until we reach a point where Jaws is actually refusing to work more often than not, until we reach a point where Jaws is being touted as being able to do things that it literally cannot do, then we aren't verging into illegalities, and it doesn't matter.
Use alternative screenreaders. Support them. If FS and other companies don't want to lower their profits to suit us, that's going to be their problem. Let 'em choke on it, as it were.
But this whole idea is getting circuitous at this point.
At post 50, if office pro cost 400 bucks, how many copies of this software do you think MS actually sells? How many copies do you think Jaws sells. From the inception of HJ all the way through VFO group, I bet they are just now closing in on half a million copies sold. I'd venture to say that MS sells millions of each version of office that is released..
why don't you audit apple for the 2 or 3 times mark up on the iphone?
You state this like it is so simple. In the automotive industry you've got many options ranging from low end Ford's to Honda civics and so on. You're right, you don't want a Jaguar or Ferrari, don't buy one.
In the assistive tech world, you either pay a lot of money, or, pay a lot of money, subsidized by the state, you don't really, in essence have an option, seeing as the bulk of us don't have much, if any extra money to start with. Then on top of this, if you're state doesn't have a certain company on their vendor list, you have to settle for something you didn't really want in the first place, so where is the choice again? I could go on and on. Talking tape measures. Same exact thing you could buy at home depot or amazon for a few bucks, now is hundreds because it what, talks? Sure, you could buy a tactile one from the blind mice mart, but this is only limited to 6 feet and is $7. I and others will not give up the argument. if it legitimately costs $100 plus to develop jaws or $4000 or so to produce a focus 40, then ok, let's see where the cost lies. If the expenses really are that much to support such products, then, alright but let's see it first. In an industry where there really isn't much choice in terms of price, not choice for the actual product, but choice for cost, then how is that any different from a car industry that only sells a variety of high end luxury cars, all within $10,000 of each other but all are $60,000 and up. Their all out of anyone's price range no matter how you slice it. So its like reinventing the Honda Accord all over again for assistive tech, which is working completely backwards, in my view.
The truth behind Apple products is that it's easy to buy something that is an older version of a current model and pay less, hell get an iPhone SE used like I did, I was actually given one, or get a slightly older iPad. So arguing that point doesn't really stand. The market for used assistive tech is smaller than the actual market itself, and the bulk of which appear to be good deals are, again, found on Ebay, and I wouldn't touch ebay with a mile long pole.
Freedom Scientific, or any company for that matter, is not going to bend to your will. Quit wimpering and use N V D a and stop supporting Jaws.
It isn't my will, do you understand, it is a bigger idea that effects all of us. Just letting companies like them dominate and just simply using NVDA doesn't solve the issue, it let's the beahavior and practice continue continually slowing innovation down and therefore effecting success for all of us. Take away the state agencies and what is left?
In other words, the only reason FS continues and the rest of them is because there is an entity that will cough up that kind of money. Take them away and they'll die within a month and go bankrupt. My point exactly.
You won't make the state entities stop supporting Jaws because you audit FS and demonstrate a high profit margin. That won't suddenly turn the tide.
You will make the state agencies recognize stuff like NVDA by, ahem, pushing NVDA as a competitive screenreader. Whether that means talking about it, advertising it, spreading by word of mouth, developing for it, donating to it so that other people with more skills can do more of those self-same things.
If we were all in a position where we had no free alternative, then you'd have a point. But the very existence of a cost-free alternative throws everything askew. Since NVDA now exists and is in active development, auditing FS does absolutely nothing. I circle, once again, back to my main point. Negatively stigmatize FS's business practices by positively reinforcing other screenreaders and other companies that do not do the same thing.
Unless I am horribly mistaken, a state agency which tells you "Jaws or bust" can do absolutely nothing to you if you want to use NVDA. This means that one of your previous posts is null and void, since that point was made to attempt the idea of there being no choice, when there is always a choice available.
Listen. I get it. It sucks to really feel the idea of being over a barrel. I've railed against it too. It shouldn't be happening, here or anywhere. But it does happen, and rather than fight it head-on, the trick is to push the alternatives so hard that they simply can't be ignored.
I have experienced that state agencies will allow you to get anything you want even if that thing is not on the venderrs list.
I've stated this before, and I'll bet several others will tell you the same if they'd post.
You just have to justify that product.
I wanted to think before answering. It's something I'm working on.
To the poster who said why I have trouble with other screen reader, it is my learning disability.
When I was in 11th grade, I was using Apple2E, and a Braille-N-Speak, to do my work on. I went to school in 12th grade, and found they were using all JFW stuff, and IBM-Compatable stuff. It took almost half the year, before I could use the computer independently. Why, you say?
The commands kept confusing me, and I kept accidentally freezing the computer.
I did try NVDA, to see if it would be better. I used some JAWS commands, and froze my computer several times. I kept having to call someone and ask for help. As I don't have the money for a personal trainer, it was a good thing the person wanted to help me.
A state program was the only way to Upgrade my JAWS, and I was getting to the point that I needed a specific program, so I could receive emails medically related.
It ain't that I won't. It's too difficult. And, when my computer freezes, I start panicking. Mister, my anxiety ain't pretty, and you can bet on that. It's something I work on daily, but I did not need the command confusion, and to have anxiety issues on top of that, when I have other things going on. I felt I should eliminate the problem, since I had some money saved up in this new program I'm in, and went and bought the upgrade.
Another thing, those NVDA voices were hard to hear. I was not having much success installing the NVDA Elequence.
So, with all the other things I'm dealing with, I felt it necessary to change what I could, and accept the things I couldn't change.
I'm not saying I'll never learn, but it's not likely, with no funds for a teacher. And, having to repeat tasks with assistance, costs that much more.
Blessings,
Sarah
Before now I've refrained from jumping in , but feel it's time that I comment. I would venture to say that I have been around much longer than most of you have. I can remember when there was no screen readers and computers at the workplace were basicly non-existent. . Because I have been using Jaws now for more than a few decades , I can honestly say that the price has not increased at the same rate as most other goods and products in America on the market have increased. That is, they have not increased much at all in the last 20 years or more for sure. Before Jaws, we as blind employees or even home users hadno screen reader to link us with the rest of the world. I feel incredibly grateful to the manufacturors of Jaws and other products for the blind. So I agree wholeheartedly with Margort, who said what needed to be said in just a few words. If you don't want to support FS, then don't. Stop your whining and quit begrudging FS and other such manufacturors their much earned success. Most businesses are in business to make a profit to support their families, not to give their products away or at a reduced price to suit the whims of the consumers.
This argument is obviously going in circles, and we're evidently not accomplishing anything. So, I'll just say one more thing and then not reply any further to this topic.
If JAWS were suddenly made free in this country for blind consumers I.E, Freedom Scientific works out a deal with the United States government to pay for it like they did with countries like Columbia, I'm fairly sure that we would not see posts even remotely related to this on the boards, and JAWS would become the most dominant screenreader again.
the reality is this, if we are at 500 thousand copies of JFW at a cost of 1000 per, we are at ahalf a billion in jaws sales over 30 years. Figure in the money spent paying the 100 or so person staff, and I don't think the profet margin is nearly as large as folks want to make it out to be. Yes, they make money, so does Apple, and so does Microsoft. Here in America, you can make as much money as you want, or as much money as the market will allow you to make. Vote with your pocketbook.
This board served absolutely no purpose but to prove that the OP slept
through basic high school economics, and thus does not understand how supply
and demand work. This was illustrated perfectly by him arguing against the idea
of a captive market in one post, then saying that we're a captive market in
another. Learn how a capitalist system works, then make your petitions, then
you won't look so dumb. But wait, I wasn't supposed to say anything, sorry
about that.
Yes. I was working when carbon paper was being used and I had to make sure it was facing right so I could make a copy of my reports. No such thing as a screen reader.
you can find plenty of how to articles on how to use nvda online, and a lot of the commands are the same as jaws. sarah that sounds like a computer issue, as I have never seen NVDA lock up a computer in recent memory just from you entering the wrong commands.
Admittedly, if there's a high amount of stress learning any new thing, I can understand how getting out of your comfort zone is a bit weird. I still think it might be better for you than not, and I concur with the poster who said that NVDA shouldn't be actually locking computers. But hey, some machines are just funky, I guess there's not much we can do.
lalady
points out something I'd not thought of. The price of Jaws has actually gone down, not increased.
How could that be?
Maybe they've paid for these fancy homes and so just have way to much money floating around?
Smile.
I'd give anything to have a job, and not depend so much on the charity of the government. I'm not ungrateful, I just feel horrible, that I can't give back. I am grateful for all I get. However, when my childhood was with me, I never said: "My goal is to get instead of give."
Receiving is all right, but inside, I feel guilty, because I am not able to give like others. I don't see any jobs opening up, and I've tried to look.
Blessings,
Sarah
You're right, actually, I remember JAWS being upwards of $1300, it's come down, what, 1 or 200 bucks?
Shepherd wolf: I am doing just that, pushing NVDA and have had good success with that, but while doing that, a change needs to happen. There's a lot of loyalists to jaws, some for their own reasons, some who will defend FS until the day they die. As a post I recently came across pointed out, FS actually lowered the cost of their displays, so, the poster suggested, why not jaws? Look up the Blitab, look up the orbit line of displays coming out. Look up Bristol Braille, look up tactisplay, which are still in the thousands, but comparatively less than what is on the market now and with more features. Piezo electric driven cells are reliable for the most part if designed and implemented correctly but this is inefficient and expensive.
I'm not backing down from my stance and that is that.
Hot wheels you can change the keybindings for NVDA and grab a few add-ons which take jaws like functionality I can provide you links or give you any help you might need/do remote with you if you'd like / need some help setting things up.
Got the devil in me.
Why would you want to alter a great program to work like Jaws?
That program is great. You don't want to be changing all that good work so it gost a bad program, now do you?
Laughing.
Just had to.
So, I'm going to make one more effort here, and then I'm thoroughly done with this.
I ask you: why does change actually have to happen?
Let's look at the facts:
1. NVDA is free
2. NVDA does damn near everything Jaws does, is generally more flexible, and is far more lightweight
3. Other options exist besides these two
4. On the display side of things, the same is true; other options exist
5. While it may be true that FS is still being held up as the first choice (likely because of its long-term market dominance), it is demonstrably not the only option, nor the best in all cases
6. The price of Jaws has actually come down, in a market where the price of damn near everything else has jumped up
So it seems to me, in fact, that FS is already caving to pressure a little bit. Sure, their products are still kind of expensive, especially given all the alternatives, but is what they're doing really that bad?
The end user has other choices that may cost less money, just as other users in other markets do. A sighted person doesn't have to buy a Cadillac or a Mercedes or a Lincoln if they need a car to get to work, and we don't have to pay that kind of money for Jaws with other options on the table.
So okay. There is no doubt in my mind, none at all, that the amount being charged, vs. the amount the company makes, is probably on the high side. Fine. Don't pay it. Get your vehicle someplace else. If enough people take this option, then FS will have to change their strategy.
I guess my question is this: are you going to request auditing on all companies who make expensive products? Because the more I think about this, the more it feels personal and not all that logical. This is exemplified by your "that's my stance, and I'm not backing down" proclamation. You're set on this course no matter how many of us tell you that that's not how you take bites out of capitalistic business practices.
Do what you want, I suppose. Just don't be surprised if you get a less-than-warm welcome elsewhere, too.
I'd love to see Jaws and other useful programs get cheaper. Wouldn't most people? But the cold truth is that it's not going to happen just because you make a petition demanding an audit. That's not how the world works.
I'm going to try answering, a few points:
I have all I need, learning new windows commands. I don't have the energy to learn a who new set of screen reader commands. You say it's a lot like JAWS. I used it. I can ttll you there's enough f a difference for me, that it's more stress than saving monbey. I told you before, that I tried, and am loathed to admit that I feiled with NVDA. I'm using JAWS, because, my attempts with NVDA "FAILED!" I cannot make it any clearer. If I hadn't tried, I'd have reason for you to look down on me. However, I gave it everything I had, in effort. It's hard to use a computer, when the person who can answer your questions has 1: a family besides me, including kids.
2: A business that they need to put money in the household. I'm asking for free. Who do you think this person will have more time for? The paying customer, or the sister who can't afford to pay and can't figure out how to undo what she did to her computer? It's simple as that.
I don't blame someone who needs to make money for not having time for a person whom they do other things for, including help financially. Fact is, I am grateful I can get so much help. But, I can't take advantage, even if it's family. Not because they say no. But, because, I have respect and dignity not to take things for granted.
When we were kids, we got told we would get anything we asked for, by the government. I learned as a grownup, that ain't so. If you can't get everything, don't act like you can, or that it's owed you. Worst thing I saw, was someone with blindness or some other problem, acting like they have rights to "Demand" this, or that. It's sickening, and I don't want to act that way, or be seen that way. Not even by family.
It's not pride, it's respect for others. Even those who give more than they will ever hope to get. I have a computer, because, I got help with getting one. It's not all brand new, or anything fancy. It runs. What more should I want?
Blessings In Christ,
Sarah
Sarah, I'm not looking down on you. I just want to make that perfectly clear.
Hell, if I knew NVDA well enough and could, say, get you in a skype call or something, I would gladly volunteer to help you learn what you needed to know. I'm hugely in favour of empowering people. I don't know NVDA quite well enough, though.
sarah, he tole you he can make NVDA behave for the most part, exactly like jaws, as in, you can use all the stuff you already know. or did you skip over that part?
Just-chillin is right that Freedom Scientiffic should be audited. Public bodies should know whether the prices they are being charged are reasonable or excessive.
The company that owns Freedom Scientiffic has eliminated a competitor by buying AISquared. If a private company was able to create a product to rival Jaws, it could suffer the same fate.
There Is no harm in auditing Freedom Scientiffic or compelling the company to decrease profit margins. Those who don't want to know where the money goes don't have to read the results of the audit. They will not be affected.
But auditing FS will not force them in any way to adjust their profit margin, not unless they are doing something illegal. Until or unless such proof presents itself, we're right back where we started.
In that case, we should decide any company we feel products cost to much we should audit.
If Jaws was a public utility, I could understand this, but it is not.
FS provides a product, people purchase that product, ergo the price is
reasonable for the market. There is no law that regulates pricing. You can
charge whatever you want for your service. The market regulates the pricing. If
you charge more than it can support, you don't make sales. There's no possible
way that an audit would change any of that. Audits are to make sure you aren't
doing anything illegal, or not paying taxes correctly. It doesn't have anything to
do with how much you're charging for something.
Correct, but that point isn't getting across here.
What bothers me, is if it's JFW, supposed to be for Windows, they sure ain't helping with windows10. I had to have someone that had some sight coach me through all the bs, to get JAWS/JFW to speak again.
Someone's not working with MS, like they are supposed to.
So, to put it simple:
We get forced updates with Windows, and FS does nothing to make their programs work. Narator won't even talk on my comp, even though, I used commands to turn it on, so I could hear what Microshaft wanted me to do.
If someone would teach me how to make my IPhone my computer, I wouldn't need a desktop. And, them upgrades are costly, so why no support!
Blessings,
Sarah
As far as I'm concerned, aside from the usual implementation of what an audit does, I.E. illegal activity, that's not the intent of such an audit, it is merely a request to document the trail of money. If there is another word or path other than an audit, what is it. A quote specialty market isn't an excuse to charge whatever you want. It's when you create an artificial scarcity scenario because you know that a certain demographic no matter how big or small will absolutely need your products that you find a way to gobble up any other competition and make it profitable on your own. Who cares they were the first on the screen reader scene? I certainly don't. Times are a changin' folks. If i was the first to develop a product and someone came along and found a better way to do it, I wouldn't acquire them just so I could stay on top and keep charging a huge sum of money. That's the definition of greed. If not an audit, where are their financial reports, income, expenditures, etc. Of course they likely don't want that info out because of the very reasons I outlined here. If you are happy with shelling out huge sums of money for things that you can't function without, and living on the tit of the state that may or may not get it for you, fine, go for it. I've been raising hell, royal hell, with the commission for the blind here in Oregon. My counselor had 90 clients at one point last yere, 90. Now he has 62. Are you fucking for real folks? They refuse to hire anyone else on, and these counselors can't do their jobs, it takes months for them to add a new vendor on their list and since companies like fs are old staples, it is unlikely agencies will be willing to change for one client. Its an old, dead and dying system that needs to be done away with. In its place, it takes folks like me to band together and actually brainstorm a solution. Be it a foundation, a business, or something. But it is going to take more than one person to stand up. I was hoping by making this thread there would have been more commonality between us, but a lot of you guys will prop the system up no matter what is put in front of you. I really can't believe it. Don't you see you're working against yourself? Companies like fs are actually just part of the problem, state agencies are a very large problem in and of themselves. I'm not going to bother getting into it here since I'll be put down for it. I'm not going to spend 4 6 8 10 more years in school because the commission or vr says I need a bachelors in whatever. By then it'll be out of date. Times are changing, find out what specific certifications you can get, areas your interested in and go for that and stick it on your resume. A bachelors in computer science is basically saying, "well I have no clue really where I want to go, but here's this nice blanket degree, hire me. At one point I had my Novell Netware OES 6.5 CNA certification. I had my Microsoft Vista McTS degree which, for reasons not in my control, was the worst degree one could have gotten, and I was part way to my Cisco CCNA. I didn't use Cavi or anything I was in main line vocational education. I never really took a liking to a handful of some of the people working around this Cavi thing that's been around for a while. My Netware CNA cert was super difficult since it was all done in virtual machines, and even back then I used NVDA for everything, not jaws, there was absolutely no accessibility with Netware and had to memorize everything. Netware is something I just all around suggest you stay away from. My Microsoft certification MCTS was a challenge because although after 8 hours of testing, during that 8 hours I had a reader/scribe who could barely speak English at all. It isn't easy, but if you want credentials, focus on specific areas that will take you maybe a few months, rather than years, to acquire. You'll be ready for a banging resume in no time, and you'll have more things to add to your resume, say you can get 2 or 3 certs put on your resume in 6 months, let's say, Microsoft office MOS in excel and Word. Then Comp tia security + and maybe one from accessibility association.com. That's far more diverse than a bachelors. Why because it sounds fancy but doesn't mean anything and takes you 4 5 6 x longer to do it? Come on. Then all the stupid ass prerequisites that no one cares about. And then people say, yeah, well, a college degree says, you stuck with it and pushed through it. What does that even mean? That's the dumbest thing I've heard ever.
Again with the wimpering. Why not boycott the company. Hand out reading materials to persuade your friends to do the same. Again, FS will not bend to your will.
I fail to see how any of us are propping up the system when we're encouraging people to torpedo FS. I think we're just being accused of supporting the system because we have a way to circumnavigate it that is not specifically to your liking. Tough luck.
You do give some decent advice about certifications and such, mind you. That's about the only really useful thing I've taken from this thread, unfortunately.
You could always move to an absolute communist country. I hear north
korea's market is absolutely booming these days. There your illogical form of
economics might actually work. You'll starve, but you'll have your principles.
FS doesn't just sell to people - it sells to public authorities and non-profit organisations which rightly want to provide blind workers and students with the best screenreader. If it was able to mmake profits at a lower price, those organisations would save money which could then be spent on improving or maintaining their services.
Use NVDA, fine. But the money pot will always be there. Unless you start insisting state agencies recognizing NVDA and getting more people involved thereby getting more people interested in developing for a free open source alternative NVDA will explode you just watch it does no good. It's going to take more than just the every day user to advocate for the simple reason that it is open source. To agencies that means it must be inferior to paid alternatives. JAWS is historically deeply embedded in the assistive tech culture. These counselors really give no advice whatsoever so it is left to the client to figure out what he or she wants to do and in turn, needs. Because they typically have no idea they just know they want a job, they'll follow the leader so to speak and the scopes are narrowed. It's going to take some drastic action to really change the system for our benefit. Take a look at Braille technology. I've been finding more and more small guys popping up all over coming up with solutions that are a fraction of the current price of piezo electric driven braille cell displays. FS and JAWS is a vestigial appendage of the early 2000's. It is good for what it does, I'll say that, and the scripting system is nice with the script manager and all, but one I'm sure could do the same thing probably easily with NVDA and python. I'm not a scripter just an occasional website designer, and I do need to really start picking up some languages and NVDA is where I'm primarily starting.
I have a bachelors in CS. I agree that it doesn't prepare you for any specific job and I
think they should focus more on practical things that everyone will need to know when
they go to work and less on theory. However, my background now makes it easier for
me to acquire the specific skills and certifications I think I need. For instance, I'm
reasonably comfortable coding in at least half a dozen programming languages. The
more languages you know, the easier it is to pick up new ones.
I agree, it seems knowing c++ will basically be the foundation for the structure and implementation for other languages. Plus cpp is pretty diverse, it's the go to language for most things. I'd like to get into c++, python and php for starters. I think I'd need braille output to really get the hang of the syntax of languages or at least it'd make it easier. Not necessary though. I'm sitting next to a view plus max tiger so whatever I need I'll just emboss examples out or code forms to get the idea, not too worried about it.
Well to be clear I know what functions and variable declarations look like, I'm talking more about putting it all together and then making something work, finding libraries to reference, etc. I understand the structure of functions, but I've not really gotten past that, or even where to begin with writing something which may be why I haven't gotten very far. Then again, i am just using online tutorials and I don't have anyone actually helping me, mostly because anyone I ask says look it up, so I don't really even bother. But yeah I would really like to get into it more. The furthest I've gotten with programming has been 3d design with open scad, believe it or not, I can do more with that than I can with anything else. And html is pretty simple... And all open scad code is basically really simple c++ functions and such.
I'd like to be able to design sounds.
Senior, your theory falls into the same gap that chillin's does, I.E we do not
live in a communist market. FS is not bound by any rules of nobless oblige, or
some higher calling. They're a business, not a church. What is it about us blind
people that makes us think we're so special that we deserve to have everything
be handed to us as cheaply as absolutely possible, and freely would be much
appreciated, because having free things is our right. So many blind people are
so upset when things cost them money. An audio game wants to start charging
so it can stay updated and be good, people throw a fit. FS is expensive, and we
throw a hissy fit over it. Even though the vast majority of blind people don't
actually buy jaws, they get the government to buy it. And, if you do buy jaws,
and you don't like how expensive it is, how about you spend that money on a
mac, and use voiceover, or spend nothing on NVDA and use that? Why do we
always have to get our panties in a tight little wad around our short and curlies
over every last person who expects us to duely compensate them for a service?
Are we so desperate to suck off the teets of cherity that we can't even have
some common fucking decency?
by the way, the new Braille note touch 18 from Humanware cost 4 thousand for an 18 cell which is 1300 more than a Focus 40 how come we aren't questioning this. The hims note takers are in the 5 and 6 thousand dollar range. Again... It seems silly that we think we're owed a break because the technology is expensive. I was working with a deaf customer a few weeks ago, and the app we purchased to work on his iPad to speak for him was $400 how come? Should we look in to this? Let's face it AT is more money than non specialized tech, but if we want it, and need it, we'll pay extra.
If you read any portion of what I wrote in this thread, I mentioned FS as merely a focal point. Target all of them. FS is just one example which comes to mind, so yes, I include them and others as well.
It would be nice to know what sort of markup the more specialized stuff (and not just your blind-related stuff, I mean) makes. But that's the key phrase: it would be nice.
I don't like the thought of crazily high markups whereby people make a killing off others who may feel held over a barrel. I really don't like that, in fact. But that's just one aspect of a capitalist model. That's how it works, until you force it to change.
But as a customer in that case, I have two choices. One is to find a cheaper alternative that works for me. The other is to realize that I'm stuck. Obviously I will try the former before submitting to the latter without a struggle.
And we will pay extra if that's our only choice. It is artificial scarcity. We are forced into a box of limited choice. It is not a valid argument to compare HW, Hims, FS and others to Microsoft, or Apple, or Google or others as you are comparing 2 totally different markets and animals.
Honestly, I would be highly surprised if companies like FS and humanware
make a lot of money. They don't make that many sales over all. The only people
buying jaws are blind people, and we're a tiny minority. Same with braille notes
and that sort of thing. I'd be willing to bet that if you compared them to the
average company like apple or microsoft, or even to a low end company like one
that makes paperclips or staplers, the profits of FS would pale in comparison.
There simply isn't a big enough market to support that.
I'm not entirely sure, Cody. Bear in mind that a specialized company like FS or whatnot also doesn't have to make and ship as many units, so their costs might be lower.
And let's also remember that over the years, virtually every single other thing in the regular market has gotten more expensive due to inflation, while the price of Jaws has actually come down. This argument would've had considerably more merit a decade ago.
True Gregg, but they also have to develop, research, manufacture, package,
ship, and support those products, while selling very few of them. Its not a lot of
revenue. Then take out taxes and the cost of doing business, the net profit can't
be that much.
And also remember that you no longer get an SMA with your purchase of jaws, be it home or professional, easily bringing the initial cost to nearly $1500. Ok, it came down from $2500 when jaws 2 or 3 was around but you also got an SMA. I know as I have a professional colleague of mine who worked for triple A for around 15 or so years and likely using jaws way before that. This was back when he had to use a parallel dongle. Now, the USB dongles are so small there's almost nothing to them that they have to put them on a keychain so you don't lose them. Think of it this way, what if NVAccess decided to make NVDA a licensed product, think of the uproar. And yeah yeah all the usual about capitalism they can do what they want, it is the principal of the matter. Why would you do that to your own people? Also silver liberal is and has been on ignore so anything he says can and will be ignored, just so you are aware.
Yes, how dare a company decide to start charging for their service. The
heartless bastards, wanting to eat and pay their bills. How dare they?
And that is where you're a bit misguided Shep.
It actually cost more to develop and sell units when you have a lower shipping rate then if you ship millions of them.
The more units you sell, the cheaper you can price them.
Alright, but you won't be able to sell more unless you lower your price. Lower your price, make it widely available and appealing for customers, and you'll sell more. If they can go to CSUN or whatever and basically hand licenses out for 50 bux a pop like nothing, why are they so nervous about doing that on a wider scale, as in, a 24 hour flash sale on fs's site, or something worthwhile. I'm not even saying it has to be $50 but I mean they do that because they know the scope of people coming by at the CSUN convention won't really break the bank for them to give away a few copies. Hell does it really break the bank at all? I'm sure it's a simple change of a few numbers and boom they've got 100 additional serial numbers on the shelf they can sell, how much could it cost to have a stock pile of retail copies of jaws. It'll cost you, what, the amount to make the cardboard boxes and dvd sleeves, couple pennies for the disks, and some braille on adhesive. It doesn't take an entire development team to produce chronologically serial numbered boxed sets of jaws. They produce 100 box sets, do a flash sale for $600, for example, see how many they sell, do it for a week or something. If they see an influx of sales, bring the price up to $750, then eventually lower it down even further once the company sees they're actually getting jaws into more people's hands. But I admit they'd now have to bring down their price a whole lot to be on par with NVDA, so it should be around $300 on average, with remote professional as a $50 extra download from the site around where they have the extra voices.
Hell, for that price, they should include an SMA and a dongle free. Now that sounds like a good deal. Then invest in other areas of technology, revamp the focus line, have think tanks to brainstorm new ideas.
It is a regular practice for all companies to offer special pricing at such events. They weren't the only one.
Most companies won't offer the specials any other time, and this is also a regular practice.
When they do this, they many times get tax breaks, or call it advertising expenses.
The reason they can't do it everyday, is they'd lose to much money and can not claim any benefits.
They only get a ceiling amount to claim in this fashion.
So, let me caption this, chillin' thinks that FS should charge a quarter the
price, which means they'd make quarter the revenue, then spend more money
on paying people to think up, research, and develop more products. I'll give you
an A Plus if you can pick out what is wrong with that scenario.
Gregg, You're wrong about one thing.
Manufacturing is considerably more expensive per unit when you produce less units. The manufacturer still needs to make enough money to justify your project going in to production.
And this effects every step of the process. Making the molds/tooling, testingand producing prototypes tends to be more expensive as well. Because the manufacturer is doing almost as much work to produce your run of 10000 or 20000 braille displays in those initial phases as they'd be doing to produce a run of 100,000 or 1,000,000.
It probably won't count for much, but none of the job postings I've seen, or people I've known who have worked for any of these companies have been making a killing, either.
There are people in the community who may be able to give you a better idea of exactly what the product life cycle costs are. But, you'd need to find them.
I remember a former Freedom employee saying that pac mates were about $400 to produce, but that figure doesn't account for all the RND or lifetime tech support costs, as an example.
On the subject of auditing freedom...
After doing a little bit of research, I think this goal is unrealistic at best. Maybe you could achieve it, but I doubt you'd get anywhere.
I'll explain.
Freedom, a private company, is owned by VFO group. VFO group is also a privately owned company.
http://www.vfo-group.com/index.php/about-us/
This company also owns AI squared and Optelec though that's beside the point. The bigger problem you have is this. VFO group is owned by the private equity firm Vector Capital. Depending on where you look, they handle somewhere between 3.2 and 4.4 billion dollars in private and public investments. In addition to the fact that they probably have a crack team of lawyers, they've also probably got enough pull with those who matter to prevent you from having a realistic shot at building the rage you'd need to get a government probe to look into this. Considering you're not an investor, and they're a private company, you're not about to get that data. Realistically, any PR team worth their jobs would be able to most likely easily shut you down.
Again, I'm not saying its absolutely impossible, but its seriously improbable.
On a side note, it was kinda interesting seeing how many other companies and brands these people had invested in.
If you are curious, here is the Vector Capital page on VFO group.
http://www.vectorcapital.com/investments/case-study/vfo
Thanks for giving me something to do on a night when I couldn't sleep. I actually enjoyed looking into all these companies a bit.
Now, you could continue attempting to accomplish your goal, as set out in the OP...
Or, you could do something more useful. In my admittedly unasked for, and uneducated opinion, I think there are more productive things you could do with your time.
You've talked about cheaper versions of more expensive technologies such as braille displays. You've also talked about the value of NVDA and other free software.
In my opinion, you'd be a lot better off helping to promote these alternatives in any way you can. You could attempt to find them other sources of funding, help drum up publicity, start donation drives, or learn how to apply for and write grants. Any or all of these ideas are more likely to have a positive effect than what you're suggesting in the OP. You've clearly got a lot of passion for this subject, make the most of it by doing something constructive for the cause.
Five bucks says Chillin' has never donated to the makers of NVDA in his life.
Thank you 109, for a well thought out post. Doesn't the entire idea of what you just discussed regarding VFO and their internals spell out a lot? The guy in question is Chris Hofstader and the specific post you mentioned is
http://chrishofstader.com/the-death-of-screen-reader-innovation/
Chris was a FS employee in the software engineering dept for upwards of 6 years. He stepped down in 2004 do to health issues.
I was actually referring more to Jaws than to things like braille displays when I was talking about profit margins and selling in bulk and all that. After all, Jaws is, in essence, a whole crapton of code, so once it's been built and tweaked and all that, it doesn't cost a manufacturing fee every time you want to give Jaws to a new user. Regarding hardware itself though, you're absolutely right, of course.
It cost.
Each time the updated version is released, that version has been developed, and money has been spent on that research, or development.
Next, you have to make sure your ideas are new, so you don't get sued, that cost money.
Each release has to be packaged, and especially for a new user who will expect to get something tangible possibly for his, or her money, not just a download.
You have to give each new user a serial number, and some data input has to be done. Someone has to physically mail the product.
Shipping needs to be paid for.
So, sure, it cost each time you give Jaws to a new user, or even in many cases the SMA for old users too, but not as much.
Older users still receive everything accept a full package.
And that doesn't even take into consideration the masses of customer support
that go into computer software, all of which the company has to pay for. And if
they want to expand, in order to make more products, which they can then sell,
they have to hire more people, which means paying people to go through the
hiring process, then paying the people they hire, then paying for new space,
new buildings, new supplies. There's a lot of things that have to be taken into
consideration. Everything from the cost of washing windows, to the cost of
plastic to make discs, all goes into the cost of making one copy of jaws.
Discs at least are cheap. You can buy them for almost nothing if you know where to look.
Of course there are lots of costs associated with generating almost anything. This is an interesting point though, because like I said, the cost of Jaws has come down even though labour costs, material costs and the like have all been going in the other direction. Thus what I said about this whole argument having a lot more relevancy over a decade ago.
You've never seen a new Jaws package.
It is more then just the disc.
It is some braille and printed material. It has the disc, sure, but it is also a package.
It has logos and design on it.
It has to be printed and all this goes through some factory probably not even associated with FS.
Your country provides, so you've never experienced getting your bran new package in the mail.
It is a product, and you feel as if you've gotten your money's worth when you receive one.
If all they sent was a disc, well, you'd probably want some literature, and such.
With each new release, all that package has to be recreated from the start.
Um, actually, you're wrong about that. I have gotten Jaws in a package before. It was awhile ago, but it came with a braille and a print manual, a cassette tape, the actual disc, plus the box it all came in.
None of that is crazy expensive. There are costs associated with all of it, the braille manual especially so, but none of those prices are backbreaking.
So my point stands. You can still get Jaws in a box, with all the material, and the disc itself, plus training material (probably on DVD now, I imagine?), and it will cost less, relatively, than it used to. Which is a small step in the right direction.
I think he's talking about the graphic/content design, not just the production, though I may be wrong.
I have always questioned the cost of Braille displays, till the Orbit came out, and that one FS makes.
One thing I will say. I've known deaf folks, folks who can't talk, folks with other limits... And, Chillin' has one thing, you won't like to hear:
Blindness equipment, has the most high costs. There's ten times the difference between 450, and even 4500, dollars. Because they're translating text to something audible, they say it costs more. But, some of the prices, are way too high. And, like Chillin', I'm not just saying FS.
Blessings,
Sarah
That's how the market works guys. Companies like FS and humanware and
hims are not nonprofit 501c3 organizations. They're not out to provide blind
people with aids to help them get along in the world. Blind services in many
states are, but they don't make the things, they buy the things. The companies
are out to make money providing a product. To do that, they have to charge for
the product. Because the product they sell is only going to be sold by a few
thousand people, and only rarely at that, they have to charge more for them to
even break even. That's why things like ferraris are expensive, not a lot of
people buy them, so they have to charge more. It doesn't cost 250 grand to
make a ferari, but they sell them for that because they have to make money off
the products. Its called supply and demand. Demand for jaws is extremely low.
Not a lot of people looking to buy a screen reader. sure, a lot of blind people
are, but how many blind people do you think there are, and how often does one
individual blind person buy jaws? So there is a limited supply, and a limited
demand, which means the cost goes up. This is basic high school economics
people. Things that are low in cost to produce, like a cane, are lower in price. A
cane is easy to make, bit of aluminum, which is cheap, some elastic, which is
cheap, and one worker can pump them out no problem. So they cost about
thirty bucks. Jaws is not so easy to produce. It takes specific skills, research and
development, coding, programming, licensing from other software
manufacturers to make sure they're compatable. Its a big undertaking to make
a computer program as complex as jaws. So it costs more, and even then they
aren't making tons of money off of it. Again, simple, basic high school freshman
economics.
Correct. I'm talking about the graphics.
I am also talking the production.
Each release has to be redesigned. Maybe not the physicl box, but the art and whatever.
It is really slick you got the package, but again, that was completely free to you.
A company has to first spend money to produce a product, after that, they hope they get enough sells to make a profit. I'll bet FS on a new release of Jaws doesn't make all that much due to the fact they've got lots of repeat customers just buying SMA's. How many new blind person per year would you guess start a brand new Jaws program?
Right, and with all those thing combined, the price of Jaws has actually come down, instead of rising the way prices on damn near everything else is concerned.
I'm still gonna call a little bit of BS on the "they're probably not making too much money" argument. It doesn't cost an extra eight hundred dollars a unit just because you have fewer units to sell. Windows costs a couple hundred dollars, and there's way more code in an entire operating system, way more development cost, way more upkeep, far more staff working on bug fixes and patches, than Jaws has. Now, your client base is also much, much bigger, so there's that; but this enormous client base also means you have to pay more people to troubleshoot the inevitable problems.
So my point here is that okay, smaller market with fewer customers means prices have to be at least a little bit higher to make a half-decent profit. But do they have to be as high as they are?
The answer is "probably not, but it doesn't matter". And if you're absolutely convinced that the price is too high, then I circle yet again back to my main point. Anyone who thinks Jaws is too expensive should be helping other companies flourish. That's not just aimed at the original poster.
Well, at that point we're just arguing about degrees. You'd have to define
what is too much money. For a company, even a one hundred percent mark up
doesn't translate to that much money. I don't know what FS's bottom line is, or
what there overhead is, but I'd be willing to bet their CEO doesn't drive home in
a bugati or anything. He probably makes a good living, but not a bill gates style
living.
Cody, I think it's easier to worry about that line, that greed you speak of, if you don't have the means yourself, or when you think of just how many people have to struggle and scrap to barely, just barely, make ends meet. I think FS is probably doing a good deal better than that. This doesn't mean they have no right to it, but it does seem to raise the ire of those who do less well for themselves. It is another product of capitalism, a system which is fundamentally flawed when dealing with people because it lacks a "human wellness" variable.
In that case, FS would need to pay the worker decent so they don't have to struggle to make ends meet.
Would you feel better if you knew they paid well, and you paid a bit more because of that?
I understand they do pay a fair wage.
Gregg, that's not a problem with capitalism, is a problem with life. There is no
system in which everyone does well. It simply doesn't exist. There are systems
in which those who do well support those who don't, but there is no system in
which everyone does well. So to claim that FS should charge less so that people
can afford their product, is just a specious argument. they have no requirement
to support people. They're a company, making a product, what makes us think
we have a right to that product? Its not a necessary product, we could easily
get NVDA for free. Its not necessary to keep us alive, its not water, shelter,
food, heatlhcare, or education. Its a tool. That would be like saying that
craftsman should charge less for its hammers so that every cabinet maker can
make cabinets. Its just not a logical statement. And all that doesn't even take
into account the fact that practically every state has government organizations
which purchase jaws for the blind citizens of that state. You could easily make
the argument that those programs need to be streamlined, updated, better
funded, and a host of other things, and I'd agree with you to the hilt, but there's
nothing in your argument that says why freedom scientific should suddenly
become a charity or a not-for-profit. Would you argue that apple should become
a NFP, or microsoft, or ford, or chevy, or Wilson sports Equipment, or lucky
brand jeans? Why are they not covered under this notion that everything should
be made affordable to everyone? Should a corvette cost the same as a ford
focus? Should an iphone cost the same as a burner flip phone? Should windows
cost the same as your basic OS your cousin cooked up in his basement? And if
so, why?
Most of the hard work, if you take a cursory look at the scripting language, has been done for you, what with predefined functions, over 800 or more of them. Unless something needs to be altered that's been hard coded in some dll or executable somewhere, I'm not entirely sure even that justifies the new cost, as I said, all of these predefined functions are clearly named and these quote programmers, or scripters as it were, have tons of experience. I think the main point I and sw disagree on is where you raise hell about the question of do they make to much money and over price their products by comparison to what he said, for example, Microsoft Windows. We can either have the discussion about a potential rip off and maybe gain enough support to petition them to lower their prices say rather than audit them, or just ignore it and use NVDA. I am of the opinion you can't just ignore it, because it just allows the practice to continue. By taking my approach, there is at least some likely hood FS and other will actually do something about it if they see enough upset. But again, this will be hard because who mainly pays for these licenses? So having the discussion about production cost is fine, but it doesn't matter because most of their client base aren't actually end users, they are state agencies. It's all b2b, not really b2c. It was set up that way for a reason, so they can protect their over inflated bottom line. That's my fundamental problem. By ignoring it and just promoting alternatives, will actually make it more difficult to actually do that since you're trying to work around a problem and ignoring it rather than dealing with it straight on. How we deal with it is another topic. Boxes, DVD's and printed material are pennies on the $, let's just be honest. Boxes of braille paper are about $40 on average and that's a lot of friggin paper. They might even get that basic stuff for free, who really knows. I can tell you my district office gets boxes of embosser paper for free. Since they are a large company, they also likely get discounts on bulk media costs. I'm just not seeing where the money goes besides in their pockets. Simply being a large company, surely they gets discounts to some degree, do you not agree? And no, given this discussion, I don't believe they deserve to be paid as good as they do. Developers, what does that even mean? We're talking about the difference between someone writing or rewriting predefined script functions and someone looking at raw C++ code. There's a world of difference in that. Hell even FS have said most of the scripters are self taught. I could be self taught on a lot of things, do I deserve to be paid 6 figures? Hell to the no, as much as I'd like it.
just-chillin how much do you feel you are worth per hour?
When you apply for jobs, what or how much do you feel you should earn?
If you have a business, or whatever, how much do you feel you should earn?
I asked because you said the people don't deserve to be paid as well.
Let's be clear. using the words, I don't think they're worth it, gives a negative connotation. Technically speaking, depending on their education/qualifications by comparison to someone with a higher level of knowledge in a computer language such as c or c++, no they are not worth that kind of money. How much am I worth or do I feel I am worth you ask? Probably no more than 12 or 13 an hour, if you ask me. If I had a CS degree probably no more than $20/hour and that's pushin' it bigggggg time. Remember inflation and with many areas in the country and democrats pushing for $15 an hour does not indicate skill level. You have legislation, Obama care and such to thank for that. So a $15 per hour job really costs the employer around say $22 an hour. But that's minimum wage in some areas. From the employer's perspective, that employee may only be worth 10 or 11 per hour. I'm not egotistical and I'm not greedy. I make minimum wage as it stands right now, and I'm ok with that, not because I don't have standards, but because I know that A, this job isn't going to last because of democrats and their cuts they want to make to education here in Oregon so it can be put in their own pockets, and because I don't have degrees piled sky high. Degrees to me don't mean much of anything, because if I can't learn something and find a practical use for it, then what good is learning it? Then there is competition and the rest of it. But even someone like me can learn to script for jaws. The documentation is pretty comprehensive, and I'm tired of paying for scripts from people. So for me, that's a practical use for a skill to learn.
Cody, bear in mind that I'm not suggesting FS become a not-for-profit just so we can get what we want. You're preaching to the converted on this front. I'm of the opinion that the price might be too high, but that since it's not an absolutely essential cost (as in, there are alternatives, and you won't die without it), FS has the ability to charge what it wants.
I'm really not going to argue with you as to why capitalism is busted, but the lack of a human wellness variable is part of it.
JustChillin: see, this is our fundamental disconnect. I'm saying that ignoring the problem is precisely the way to address it.
Let's just use fun round numbers. Say there are 50000 blind people in the world, and let's say currently 35000 of them use Jaws and pay FS. That's 70% of the blind populace who is arguably paying too much money. FS gets enough money this way to support itself. But if the general idea is that maybe FS's prices are kinda high, and that we could probably help out our fellow blind person by suggesting free or cheap alternatives, then that's what we do. We don't have to touch FS itself. After some talks and initiatives and information-spreading, let's say 3000 people switch from Jaws to NVDA. Suddenly you have a drop from 70% to 64%, which means that you have essentially taken some of FS's money away from it. As this continues, FS will either have to change its market strategy, or choke. In this way, we are not in fact truly ignoring the problem; we're just not taking it head-on.
If you are able to change the preference of a demographic away from or toward a new target, you are capable of changing the trending profits of those targets indirectly. That's what I think makes the most sense.
For the record, I am not convinced that FS needs to choke. I do think the price is quite high based on what you get vs. what you'd get from a free product, but FS has done a great deal over the years to enable blind people to use computers competitively in the work force, not to mention for pleasure as well. That shouldn't be ignored.
One last point though: I think we should dispense with the "who's worth more than who" crap right here and right now. It's rhetorically dead, and self-inflated to boot. If job A and job B are both vital to the success of a product, one requires specific code knowledge while the other requires scripting knowledge more readily available to the user, I would argue that both employees, because they're each performing a vital function, still deserve their due.
There is actually a reason that in a lot of cases, people that do accessibility related work are paid higher than average programmers.
the work doesn't interest most average programmers. Choosing to specialize in accessibility related knowledge and related skills is a specialization with a rather small amount of paths for advancement as compared to the general industry.
A lot more goes into it than basic programming.
While I'll agree a basic run of the mill CS degree isn't worth all that much these days, specializing is.
You may be able to hack together some basic scripts, but to really be an effective accessibility programmer, you need to have an understanding of UI/UX/all the different accessibility standards, among other things.
Looking at jaws realistically, not every new feature they've written relies 100 percent on jaws script functions. And it seems a little unlikely that FS would hire several dozen people that only had knowledge of the jaws scripting language.
Much of your argument seems stretched a little thin. Though I think that's been consistent across both boards you've been posting on lately. You're presenting things that fit the narrative you want to believe in.
Gregg, I think one of the big reasons jaws hasn't become more expensive comes back to the company introducing more hardware products. People who have worked at FS in the past have said that the company wanted to expand its hardware offerings to help prop up the costs associated with software development. Though, that's only speculation on my part. I'm not really buying into the windows argument you're trying to make. Windows upgrades generally run from between $139 and $299, depending on what version of windows you need/want. That's not exactly the most economical thing in the world, considering how many millions of versions of windows have been sold.
Same goes for Microsoft office. That's several hundred dollars a pop, and releases every 2 ish years.
Look at the IPhone. Its hundreds of dollars, and they sell millions. They could
charge pennies for them and make their money back, but why should they?
And, just on a personal interest level, if bill gates were to charge much much
less for microsoft, say a nickel, but then not donate hundred of millions of
dolars to WHO, doctors without borders, water treatment plants, vaccine
programs, so on and so forth, would it be worth it? His foundation, the bill and
malinda gates foundation, all but funded the polio vaccine program in india,
would you be ok with them not doing that, but charging much much less for
microsoft? Or does the fact that hundreds of millions of their dollars went to
ridding india of polio make windows worth the hundreds of dollars to you?
But wait a second, aren't the fundamentals of making any application accessible that most developers of software use around those API's and toolkits by default but it is their conscious decision to not use them because it's not important to them? It seems like those who specialize in assistive tech development simply care about making shit that works vs developers who don't care/don't see the use. This is evident by all of those who try to convince some developers to make their programs accessible and then never hear back...might be a smaller market but they aren't learning a completely new language or completely new concept, it's just that I think personally not many developers give a shit to start with. This goes back to what I always tell people, the very issue which surrounds blindness and the associated stigma is education or lack thereof.
really depends on the dev language, API's, frameworks and other factors.
Just as many of all or some of all of these things support accessibility as don't.
And many are forked, or have slightly different functionality and feature sets depending on what platform/version they're running on.
Even with something like IOS development. Apple provides a framework for touch input/UI design called cocoa touch. That doesn't mean that all apps are built using this, for several reasons. In theory, most apps could be built in this one particular framework, but aren't. Maybe because it makes cross platform dev easier, maybe because other frameworks have features not standard in Apples.
Even something simple like web accessibility has a few different standards/ways of doing things that good devs need to keep in mind, so things work with as many screen readers and platforms as possible.
Cody, using your Gates Foundation example...no, that doesn't bother me, and I wouldn't want to, say, pay a dollar for Windows if it meant humanitarian causes were being ignored. But I think we can agree that in a lot of cases, the more than hundred-percent markup you're paying is for no other reason than to pad a company's bottom line. The company has no particular interest in helping humanitarian causes. Some companies do, some don't. And the thing is, for nonessentials it's ultimately the market that will dictate the cost. If you don't like high-priced screenreaders, don't buy them. If you don't want to buy a high-end car, then don't do it. Same deal, really.
And James, the only argument I'm trying to make regarding Windows is that they are charging less money than you pay to buy Jaws, and there is an enormous amount of work put into Windows. That's it, and that's all. I'm not saying that Microsoft isn't making money hand over fist, because they are. I'm saying only that a product with a smaller dev team, a generally slower/less active dev cycle, less overall functionality (screenreader versus an operating system) is still costing three to four times more. That, all by itself, is somewhat alarming.
But it shouldn't Gregg. It makes perfect sense by basic economics principles.
FS sells many many many fewer copies of jaws than windows sells versions of
microsoft. Ergo, they have to charge more. That's why chevy charges more for
the corvette than they do for the nova. Ford charges more for the mustang than
they do for the focus. They simply sell more of the nova or the focus than they
do of the corvette. Windows and FS work exactly the same way. Its simple
supply and demand at work. Basic high school economics.
No one is saying that Jaws shouldn't cost more. But does it need to cost four times more, given that the number of people working on it is less, the amount of work that goes into it (versus an OS) is less, etc? And I argue that no, it doesn't need to cost that much. But as I've said multiple times, it doesn't matter. If anyone, self included, isn't happy with the price of the product, in this case there are options. One is to use NVDA, which is completely free, or some other screenreader. Another is, of course, to make public your support for other non-FS products in the hopes that others will see the wisdom in what you're doing.
Please don't lecture me about basic high-school economics. I'm not the one saying that Jaws should cost the same as Windows, and I'm not saying that the people at FS shouldn't make money.
The Bill and Melinda Gates foundation has it's own set of issues but we won't go there. On the programming side of things, at least Apple has a more stringent screening process than Android does. I think more apps than not are at least functional rather than not as it seems to be the case with Android. But that's an entirely separate can of worms I don't really want to get into.